So many implications of Javy Vazquez returning to NY
Tuesday, December 22, 2009 at 10:19 am by SJK
Wow. This offseason is crazy. Javy Vazquez is headed back to the Boogie Down after a brief stay in 2004. We knew Melky or Gardner would be traded after the Granderson move, because they were just too many CFs. And while Mike Dunn is a solid relief prospect, we'd trade bullpen parts all day. Arodys Vizcaino stings a little.
Here are Vazquez's numbers since he left NY:
2005-2009 (Arizona, White Sox, Atlanta)
1062.2 IP
Average 213 IP per season
110 ERA+
4.09 ERA
8.7 K/9
2.2 BB/9
4.00 K/BB
1.203 WHIP
8.6 H/9
And his FIP has improved in each of those years from 4.06, 3.86, 3.80, 3.74, 2.77
This is a solid move based on what the Yankees gave up.
So many implications of this trade though....
1. As we thought out loud last night, what does this mean for Phil and Joba? Have the Yankees given up on one of them? Does Joba get sent back to his fist-pumping ways of the bullpen? Does one of them get traded?
2. What does this mean for the OF? One of the ideas we've been discussing in NoMaas HQ is the possibility of playing Gardner in CF, since his fielding was fantastic there last season, and moving Granderson to LF. That would make for a very good defensive OF.
3. Or maybe the silent assassin lurks for Holliday. Although at this point, Cashman would likely have to approach the Steinbrenners for more money. If that happened, we'd poop our pants.
4. Yanks clearly have some work to do in replenishing the farm, after the two trades they've made.
I will literally crap my pants if Holliday comes to the Yanks.
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
Arod
Holliday
Posada
Cano
Granderson
Swisher
drool…
I’m sorry, am I the only person who remembers what happened when he pitched here in 2004?
I would not trade Melky for him. I would not pay $11 million for him. I would never let him pitch for the Yankees again. And I sure as f**king hell would never do all three! This is the worst move Cashman has made since he acquired him the first time. I appreciate stats as much as the next guy, but for f**ks sake, sometimes you have to just open your eyes!
And please don’t give me sample size bullshit. The guy came to NY, buckled under pressure, and shit the bed.
PS – In case you forgot, here’s his 2004 game log:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=3786&year=2004
I know where Mike is coming from, but we’re a long way from 2004. And that FIP makes me hard.
Dude… Mike…
He was brought here in 04 as a number 1, which he is obviously not and he pitched very well at the beginning of the year. Then he got hurt(shoulder)and was sold low. He will be a mid rotation innings eater who gets strike outs…whats not to like…and we got him for Melky, who lets face it would have been the weak link in the lineup.
I hate to be the obtuse, stat-ignorant person in this argument, I really do. But I was never so happy to see a pitcher leave as this guy.
Don’t we have a mountain’s worth of evidence indicating that consistent success in the National League doesn’t translate to success in the AL East? And isn’t he the poster child for that notion?
Come on, guys. Someone else please remember all those meatballs he was chucking for the last 3 months of his career. Someone else please remember how easily he gave up in starts when things weren’t going his way. He was CRAP!!!
Mike K, I’d ask you to open your eyes as well. Javy was 10-5, 3.56 in the first half of 2004 and made the All-Star team. He imploded during the second half (4-5, 6.92) but was also battling a ridiculous case of pinkeye.
Honestly, even if you’re right and he gives us a 4.91 ERA again who gives a shit? He’ll throw 200 innings and he’ll be our 4th starter. We got a 4.75 ERA out of Joba in the rotation last year and half the time he didn’t sniff the 5th inning. That worked out pretty well for us in the end.
Uh, 3 of those years were with the White Sox.
“I’m sorry, am I the only person who remembers what happened when he pitched here in 2004?”
He was an excellent pitcher for half a season. Then his shoulder starting to hurt and he sucked horribly for the second 1/2, and in the playoffs. He apparently lead the league in PAP (pitcher abuse points) in 2003. His arm was tired.
Then, after 1/2 a season’s struggles, the knee-jerk NYY reaction was to trade him. They gave up on him way too quickly. He’s alternated between ok and very good since.
He’s not a #1 guy, which is what we all expected in 2004. He’s a #2/#3 guy, and as such he’s a great fit. Melky is a marginal starter/4th OFer. Dunn is ye olde lefty reliever who doesn’t know where the ball is going. Vizcaino is a good pitching prospect who is ~3 years away from the majors, and his ceiling is… Javy Vasquez.
*FACEPALM.
Seen this movie before…….the ending sucked in Part I.
Hey, if everyone here is against me, I’m probably wrong, and I hope I am. I just…I don’t know…Guy always had that “deer in headlights” look when pressure got turned up. Pink eye, shoulder, pitcher abuse, torre…hey, I hope that’s what it was. But I do believe some pitchers can’t get it done here, and I thought he was one of them.
Mike,
So you were happier to see a guy who was an All-Star IN 2004 be traded for a 41 year old pitcher than you were to see that same pitcher he got traded for leave? Or Kevin Brown? Or Jose Contreras? Or Jeff Weaver?
You’re a hard guy to please.
Vazquez was arguably the best Yankee starter until the All Star break in 2004, and only when Brown and Mussina went down with injury and he was asked to be the No. 1 starter did he start to falter.
Yes, I remember his first tenure here, and I STILL say we should have signed Beltran and kept Vazquez. Levine chose poorly, which is what happens when you let a frikkin’ lawyer negotiate your trades.
I for one, based on what we gave up, LOVE this move.
This is a dope move. I love the rotation now. I would keep things close to as they are though. But Hughes back in the pen as the 8th inning guy until someone in the rotation busts them self, then pop Hughes back in the rotation: you keep his over all innings down since he can’t really go past 150 and you give stability to the pen in the early months when we usually lose a few games thanks to the like or Edwar and Veras.
I agree with Mike this is an awful move this guy absolutely cannot handle the pressure of NY. You guys are drinking a big old glass of Kool Aid if you believe anything different. Atlanta is one of the best organizations for getting as much as they can out of their pitching suffice to say the Yankees are not (refer to Joba and his rules of miss use). His ERA was nearly 2 whole points higher with Chicago a year ago. I’m willing to put money on it that his numbers will deflate back down to the pitcher he was while with Chicago in 2008 and that at least 30hrs will be given up by Vazquez. This guy will be the next best thing to AL East hitters since t-ball.
Anyway, keep drinking the Ecto Cooler. This trade is awful.
All he has to be is better than Sergio Mitre. we are not asking him to be an ace, we are asking him to match up with other teams #4s.
BTW…this will actually help replenish the system. He projects to be a type A after 10. We offer him arb, which he wont take since he will probably want a muti year deal, so we net draft picks.
I think it’s a decent trade – not blockbuster but decent. Vazquez should have never left the Bronx as they should have been more patient with him at least for one more season. You can talk about how he imploded at the end of 2004, but if I remember correctly the entire team imploded at the end of 2004. Pinning it all on Vazquez is a cop out.
The thing I like about Cashman is his unpredictability, starting around the time of the Abreu deal: There were several pitching names flying around last night and no one even came close to suspecting that it was Vasquez.
Potch, to answer this question:
“So you were happier to see a guy who was an All-Star IN 2004 be traded for a 41 year old pitcher than you were to see that same pitcher he got traded for leave? Or Kevin Brown? Or Jose Contreras? Or Jeff Weaver?”
No, I wasn’t. I thought it was a knee-jerk reaction to our failure to acquire Johnson in the 03 season.
Yes, RJ and Contreras were Levine/Tampa moves, but Vazquez instead of Schilling was a Cashman call. And letting Pettitte walk so we could acquire Kevin Brown was a Cashman move. And so was Jeff Weaver. I love Cash, but frontline pitching decisions have been his Achilles heel (CC notwithstanding, as that was a no-brainer).
To give up decent pieces for Vazquez and relegate either Joba or Phil to the pen for another year in an offseason where Roy Halladay was available seems a bit foolish to me. Take this package, throw in Jesus Montero, and there is a chance we could have had Halladay instead.
Driven By Jeep,
That is incorrect. The team imploded for the last 4 games of 2004. Javier Vazquez imploded for the last 4 months. Big difference.
And everyone saying “Vazquez was an all-star in the first half” is neglecting to point out that Torre picked him as an all-star. It is a bit of a mitigating factor.
And the idea that he only has to be better than Mitre is another short-sighted one. He has to be better than what we could have gotten with the $11 million we’re paying plus the trading pieces used to get him.
I’m squarely on the fence about this move – and will ultimately defer to Cash’s plan and wait and see.
But part of me really doesn’t think this guy has the stones to pitch for the Yankees. Sometimes you need to pull your nose out of the stat book and try to put some context to the numbers.
CC
AJ
ANDY
Javy
JOBA/Phil
FTW who the heck can whine about this!? Arguably the best rotation in baseball the only problem is who starts 5th and thats a problem I can deal with.
Even if Vazquez only pitches at his 2008 level, this is a good move for the Yanks. They get an innings eater who helps fill out the back end of the rotation, leaving Joba, Hughes, Aceves et al to only have to pitch one out of every 5 games. Plus, the bullpen gets stronger in the process.
And I’m optimistic that Vazquez won’t regress to 2008 levels. He was the victim of some pretty bad defense that year, with an ERA nearly a run higher than his FIP. His BABIP against was also high at .328 (compared to a more normal .297 last year and in ’07). If he’s somewhere between his ’09 and ’08 production, this is a steal.
Brian Cashman is one ill motherfucker. This is ridiculously great and surprising. At this point, I think I’m fine with a Gardner is center and Granderson in left situation.
My issue is that it is very conceivable that come August, AJ is on the DL, and Andy is showing signs of being 38 years old. In that scenario, Javy Vazquez is thrust directly into the same role he was in 2004, and I have no reason to suspect he would do any better this time around.
Isn’t that at least a fair concern?
I’m really not trying to fan any flames here. I love the Yanks like all of you. I’m just slightly more paranoid than everyone else!
To those that are having negative thoughts about this trade, this is what we KNOW Javier Vazquez is going to give to the Yankees in 2010:
200+ IP
9 K/IP
4 K/BB
Vazquez is not as good a pitcher as Josh Johnson, or Ben Sheets (when healthy), or Roy Halladay, or Cliff Lee. But what he is is a guy who strikes out a batter an inning, takes the ball 32+ times every season, and doesn’t walk anyone. That is perfect middle of the rotation stuff. All this for a fourth outfielder.
When I first heard that the Yankees had acquired Vazquez, I put my head in my hands. I remembered the 2004 ALCS. I remembered his fade down the stretch that year. I thought about how good numbers in the NL don’t translate necessarily into the AL. Then I thought about the trade from a personnel perspective, and this is clearly a very lopsided trade in the favor of the Yankees. To get more, it would have cost MUCH more (would you want to give up Montero, Chamberlain, + for Josh Johnson?). This keeps the heart of the system in tact and adds a much needed middle of the rotation guy.
Mike K – If Burnett and Pettitte are hurt/struggling in August of 2010, the Yankees will go out and get a starter to take that spot with their bevy of minor league talent (read: Montero). I am sure they have no aspersions of Javy Vazquez in the #1 or #2 spot in their rotation. You don’t get those guys in trade for Melky Cabrera (unless you slip a roofie in the other GM’s drink).
This is a good move. Consider what the Yankees gave up: Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn and Arodys Vizcaino.
We know what Melky is by now – a good fielder, but probably not up to being more than an average LF in terms of total offense/defensive performance. Granderson is better than Melky in both aspects, no question. Brett Gardener is a bettter fielder than both Granderson and Melky, so Gardner in CF and batting 9th isn’t so bad. This doesn’t mean the Yankees wont reach an agreement with Damon or so other FA or make another trade.
Mike Dunn isn’t anything to cry about and no one can say they really know what Arodys Vizcaino is, although it looks like he has a potentially high ceiling, and thats not for a few years.
So the Yankees didn’t give up much and if Javier Vazquez can pitch 200 innings and have an ERA of 4.50 (average of 6 IP, 3 ER), I think this is a great deal for the Yankees. this would mean his ERA had gone up 1.50 from last year, and I believe the value of transfer from NL to AL is .75 for ERA
Vazquez is 5 years older, so for those who make the argument that he couldn’t handle the pressure (although he was having shoulder issues and pink eye, so he was obviously not even 90%, never mind 100%), maybe he’s learned something in the last 5 years pitching for what, 3 different clubs?
Lets give this a chance, Yankees fans. i love Melky too, but this makes the team better.
Mike -
1) Take any team in baseball and have them sustain injuries to their 2 and 3 starters, and you have a team with problems.
2) This package plus Jesus Montero would not have even been close to enough to acquire Roy Halladay.
Jon,
you’re right – I meant to say this package plus joba or hughes. my point was that this trade puts one of them in the pen, thus severely mitigating their value, and (potentially, though not certainly) stalling their development. In that case, I’d be much more willing to throw them in for Halladay. Now, Joba or Hughes, plus Melky, plus Montero, plus various other prospects…does that get Halladay done?
You guys are making some excellent arguments, though, and I hope you’re all right.
And as for point #1, yes, any time would be hurt with problems to their top two starters. My point is that when one of them is 38, and the other has AJ’s injury history, you’re much more likely to be faced with that problem than another team.
I was on the hating Javy Band wagon too after the 04 ALCS but the guy can pitch and even if he is out 2nd starter I think he can handle it, my only hope is that Cano doesn’t get all depressed cause his homeboy melky got traded, I’ll take gardners speed anyday of the week, white boy can move and thats something we need especially late inning pinch running for the blob nick johnson and runs like a cement truck jorge posada
I would have preferred Tanyon Sturtze
hey Joe Torre – what about Scott Procter? Can you imagine Scott Procter’s face when he found out YOU were going to manage the Dodgers?
My favorite move is when i brought Proctor in in a tie game in the 9th inning on the road in Oakland in Game 2 of the season in 2007. I still think about that one. Surprised it didnt work out. Oh well april games arent that important
Joe Stop calling me I’m 50 years old for crying out loud who do you think I am Jesse Orosco?! Go bug Scott Proctor will ya!
Mike K – you’re not alone, I think your points are all valid. When I read the headline on ESPN.com a few minutes ago, I thought the same as you: “Didn’t that guy totally implode when he was here last?”
first – i know nothing about stats besides era, k/p, ip, and the like. so i can’t compare “fip” or whatever. my lack of baseball knowlegde is directly caused by the fact that i am alvaro espinoza.
second – i did not like this move much at first, mainly because melky was a fan favorite and i hated vasquez for his 2004 performance (yes, i know he was good first half – but im a new york sports fan and require constant greatness). once the emotions got aside tho, i looked at the stats from last year of javy vs. burnett. javy beats burnett in all categories pretty much (of stats that i can understand), not by much but by a decent margin. if you take javy vasquez and put him in the al east, those stats naturally inflate a bit (probably to around his chi sox numbers, give or take) – which could very well put him at or near burnett’s numbers from last year. therefore, if i had a chance to trade melky for someone with a decent shot of being near or at AJs level for a season, i am for it. especially for a #4 starter role.
Getting rid of Melky might put a fire under Cano. They reinforced each others lazy work ethic and lack of intense play.
Girardi may be able to get something out of Vazquez that Torre could never figure out.If Torre ever knew who he was that is.
Hey espinoza, what you need to know about this board is that it doesnt matter if we just picked up a 4th starter who had 238k/44bb last year for a couple of spare parts. That stats that matter are that he had a couple of bad innings in the playoffs 5 years ago. So he sucks.
2007 was the year the Yanks traded Scott Procter for Wilson “Can’t Find a Better Man.” Have to wonder if Procter set a record for innings and appearances (52 games, 54 innings, traded on July 31) before he was traded.(hence the Joba rules) i started calling everything Procter, as I assume Joe Torre did, he called for the guy so many times… “pass the Procter [salt].” “I’m on my way to Procter [lunch].” “you know who i haven’t seen in a while? Scott Procter. Oh wait, let me turn on the Yankees game – ah, there he is. every day. obviously. the rest of the bullpen sucks, but jeez.”
One thing no one’s brought up is the money (I know, I know). For what they’re paying Vazquez, they could have kept Melky and signed DeRosa and either Sheets or Duchscherer.
I don’t think we can underestimate the value of Vazquez coming back and having a real pitching coach instead of Guidry.
Javy’s numbers last year were outstanding. Granted it was the NL, but he still pitched better then Burnett ever did and he translated pretty well to the AL East.
He’s a strikeout guy that is going to take the mound every 5 days. With the potential for injury to Burnett and Pettitte, that’s crucial. I wanted Sheets but Vazquez is a better bet to throw 200 innings.
Oh, and I’ve got to think that somewhere in the back of their minds, the Yankees have given up on making Hughes a starter and are instead grooming him to take over from Mo when he retires. I’m okay with that, actually.
I think it’s the other way around. Joba to the pen.
2010 rotation by the middle of May: Chad Gaudin, Sergio Mitre, Orlando Hernandez, Randy Johnson, Andy Pettittte
I’m stupid!
I think stats in this case can be deceiving as Vasquez hasn’t a little south of good in the AL. My biggest concern though is the fact he has never in his life won a big start. He has got all the tools and the potential as the Yanks #4 starter is great but his career has been a big disappointment to this point. Hopefully the Yanks can get 12 + wins out of him this year and than gain 2 draft picks next year when he leaves.
Correct, Voomo Zanzibar. He had “a couple of bad innings” for the Yankees in 2004. That’s it. That’s all that went wrong for him. I imagined July, August, September, and October, when he posted ERA’s of 6.61, 7.43, 6.29, and 9.53, respectively. We’re typical, idiot NY baseball fans who are basing everything on one fat meatball he threw to Johnny Damon.
And I shouldn’t even be dwelling on the second half because he was an all star in the first half. And after that, he was the first pitcher in baseball history to have a tired shoulder, and he had the longest recorded case of pinkeye in human civilization. Also, he pitched for Joe Torre, and we all know there isn’t a pitcher alive who can have a quality season under Joe Torre. Considering all he overcame, it’s a miracle he held the opposition to a measly 37 home runs.
hey, all this talk of pitchers and outfielders… anyone else concerned that we have a 36 yr old SS and a 34 yr old 3B who doesnt have The Hudson anymore?
What if something happens to one of them?
Ramiro Pena? Hairston? Derosa? Yeesh.
That’s where we need depth.
Whadda ya say we trade The Farm + Joba for HANLEY RAMIREZ – and put Hanley in LF (literally watching Derek and Alex’s backs)!
Its easy to hide Vasquez in the 4 hole all year until we close out the season in Fenway. I have never been so happy to see a player go. Javy is not someone that can hang in the BX. He will buckle when the pressure is on and it is playoff time.
Sheets CashMoney, Sheets- Do IT!
Great trade. If they had used a fourth starter these past playoffs it would have been Gaudin. Vazquez is a huge upgrade there. He is a fly ball pitcher so his #’s wont look as impressive at the Stadium but all I’m concerned with is his IP, and Javier is a hoss’ that will eat up innings and pitch against other teams 4th starters a lot of the time.