i wouldnt trade either since doc is 32. i would however try to make a deal with either (not both) for king felix. trading either for doc would be a 2003 yankee move.
if i had to give up one it would probably be joba, but i dont see why this is the right move now with a 32 year old halladay and it was wrong with a 28 year old santana, you’re giving up money and prospects for a guy whose best days are probably coming to an end. i’d be nice to have him, but not at the cost.
if you have the chance to turn Joba into Doc Halladay, you do it before Toronto can change their mind. You receive the best pitcher in baseball for the top of the rotation and eliminate a problem in the process.
would not be opposed to a package of: Joba and Romine for Halladay. However, that is where it ends. No Jesus Montero for Toronto. No Hughes. And no Austin Jackson.
Agree on no to Joba/Hughes/Montero but … no Austin Jackson? Now that’s a trade piece I would give up for Doc. Let’s not fall too far in love with our prospects now.
evil empire: i mean no austin jackson in combination with Chamberlain. If austin jackson is the lone center piece in the deal (unlikely), different story.
I’d trade both of those guys for Halladay. Neither has proven they can even complete a full season as a starter. Hughes did well as a set up man, but I doubt he’ll ever be a decent starter. Joba seems to be going down hill. His control isn’t as good as it was when he came up. He’s just not as dominating.
If you can sign the best pitcher in the AL and extend him…why not?
The King Felix thing is a pipe dream…Seattle is never trading him.
Are you kidding me? You’d trade a 24-year-old who is three years into the same process as 2001 Roy Halladay for old man Halladay himself? Like Joba, the infallible Roy “Jesus Christ as a ginger” Halladay sucked in the third year of his career. But he worked out those kinks. Anyway, why would they trade Joba this year when his trade value has declined(don’t tell me what fancraps says. think for yourself)?
This is the same dog-and-pony show the Blue Jays pulled last year and Heyman and his cronies are making up things they “heard” from “a rival GM.” Someone should trade an literal sack of shit for Vernon Wells, though
I agree that you trade either one in addition to either Jackson or Montero if you can get Halladay. Having him in the rotation would almost guarantee a playoff berth for the next 3 or 4 years. None of the three prospects is ready to dominate at the major league level, which is what Halladay does. The Yankees have other catching prospects in their system who are a couple years away, which is about where Montero is. I do the deal if it’s at all possible.
Joba and Hughes have not shown me they can be even a 5th starter on this team, if Joba could get his ERA lower than his BAC that would be a miracle in itself. There is not a team that could contend with us if we got Halladay. A-Jax, Hughes, Joba Romine could all go, I would however agree that Montero is off limits
You guys talk about Halladay like he’s some over the hill bum. The guy’s been a stud on one of the worst teams in baseball. He had a good 2nd half last year, but not up to his standards…probably because he had to deal with that idiot Richardi trying to trade him for what seemed like forever.
I’d trade Joba/Hughes and Montero for him. Montero is/will be a great hitter, but he’s a full time DH on this team long term. There’s no other spot for him with A Rod and Tex on the team long term. His defense at the C position is not acceptable on the MLB level.
Get Halladay with any combo of prospects if there’s an extension involved. Halladay is dominant and still in the prime of his career. This team is built to win right now, not for four years from now when Joba or Hughes MAY be #1 or #2 starters, or when Jesus MAY still be a catcher (I’d rather just get Mauer anyway).
Only reason not to do it is if getting Halladay impedes on the Yankees ability to sign Mauer when he becomes a free agent.
Trev I agree 100%. This team is built to win now. Mauer is proven and when he’s a FA he should be the Yankees #1 priority. Montero I just don’t ever see being a MLB catcher. He’s a 1B/DH.
There’s no reason to think that Halladay won’t have 3-5 very good years ahead of him.
If they can trade and extend him for another 5 years. Why not? What’s the downside?
I wouldn’t count on Mauer becoming a FA. He’s local, not chasing the bottom dollar, and working on an extension as we speak. People often say “Oh, the new stadium will help them get more money” without having a clue as to what they’re talking about, but in Minny’s case, they’ll actually get the revenues from their luxury suites now, as opposed to having to fork those over to the Vikings. That’s something that will tangibly increase their ability to spend.
I’m surprised people are higher on Hughes than Joba. Hughes was great in the setup role IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but his post season was pretty lame. I dont recall him having any good starts in the regular season; as I recall, they were going to remove him from the rotation and send him down to AAA before they moved him to the bullpen. Joba had some great starts and some awful ones. I thought Joba was pretty decent out of the pen in the post season – Joba has grit and I dont think Hughes handles the pressure nearly as well – and Joba has better stuff. therefore, i would think Joba is more valuable than hughes
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Frederick the Elephant December 4, 2009 11:46Reply
When will people finally understand that postseason performances mean nothing when evaluating a player overall? Swisher and Teixeira had awful postseasons. Should we get rid of them too? Cashman said it after the season ended. He doesnt even look at postseason performances when making decisions.
“I dont recall him having any good starts in the regular season; as I recall, they were going to remove him from the rotation and send him down to AAA before they moved him to the bullpen.”
Then you recall poorly. Hughes had two great starts, two bad starts, and two okay starts. They removed him because they had nothing else they could do with CMW, and then didn’t have the balls to stretch him back out after the Wanger went down.
My bad, one great and three okay starts. Small samples, certainly, but in his final three starts, he had 21 Ks and 3 BB in 18 innings, with only two HR.
I give up any package that does not include Montero. Yankees have a window now to win a couple more world series. Roy is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Add him to a rotation of CC Aj Pettite and whoever and you have the best rotation in baseball. I think Joba and Hughes will both be very good, but will either be as good as Roy? I doubt it. The guy is simply amazing. No Montero. That is where I draw the line.
Joba is 24 and has shown alot more as a starter than Hughes has, even if Joba’s lost a few ticks on the fastball he still 92-94 as a starter and has shown he can throw 4 pitches, 2 of them being plus pitches. Hughes is 89-92 as a starter but mostly sits around 90. He has only shown 2 pitches and struggled mightly trying to re learn his slider and change, his cutter did look pretty good out of the pen but that not going to be a out pitch for him as a starter.
Espn had a very good article up yesterday about this subject, if the yankee brass beleive that Joba and Hughes are going to end up as 4/5 starter or quality relievers than they should make the trade for Halladay. If they believe they are going top of the rotation starter than they keep them. Not sure where Montero fits in in the future but that kinda bat doesn’t come along very often, they should keep him unless its for a much younger pitcher like King Felix.
This team is built to win right now we probably have another 2-3 yr window with guys like Jeter and Mo. A rotaion of Halladay, CC, AJ, Pettite and Joba/Hughes/Wang/ IPK/ whoever gives us by far the best rotation in baseball and the best shot of repeating for the next couple days. I’m not worried in the least that Halladay will age poorly, he’s a big guy with an excellent injury history and take amazing care or himself and i believe with the movement on his pitches he be able to maintain a high performance level into his late 30′s much like Pettite has. This will play out alot like the Santana situation, the jays price will come down, if we could get him for Hughes Romine and a couple lower prospects i would do it now
I meant a rotation of Halladay,CC,AJ, Pettite and whoever gives us the best rotation in baseball and the very best chance of repeating for the next few yrs.
Wouldnt trade Hughs or Montero, everyone else is fair game for a 1-2 punch in the face of CC & Doc. In fact if you could do a Joba, Gardner & low level prospect or two for him it would be a steal.
Take a look at the prospects Cash has traded in the last 10 years. Who would you now say – “Man, wish we had him back?”
As far as I am concerned, only Mike Lowell fits that bill. Then again, that is debatable because the Yanks would have never traded for ARod if Lowell were at third. I would have also kept Ted Lilly, because Jeff Weaver was a complete bust, but Lilly was really no big loss in the long run, either.
The point is – prospects always seem so much better before they turn into busts. Halladay, however, is better than anyone in the Yankees farm system will ever be – right now.
Lilly’s been better than one would think – he’s posted four 3+ WAR seasons since leaving the Bronx. Where they really screwed up with him was signing the K-Man instead because his posting fee wouldn’t be subject to the luxury tax. Argh!
Lets see they had to bring in Gaudin and Mitre because Joba could not even make it out of the 4th inning near year’s end. This is insane, Hughes and Joba will never even sniff 150 career wins in fact if they do it combined it will be a surprise. Halladay is a workhorse and if they set up a L,R,L,R rotation with CC, Halladay, Pettite, Burnett who would even touch them? They could have Igawa as the 5th starter and still win the East by a dozen games
“Joba and Hughes have not shown me they can be even a 5th starter on this team”
Except Joba did exactly that in 2009. What do you think a 5th starter looks like
Well yes it does, as Halladay has 150 wins already and will likely get close to the 300 mark before he retires. You are advocating keeping Joba and Hughes who will strive for mediocrity, so what makes sense is to get someone who can help the Yankees win titles
Joba’s age-23 season was better than Halladay’s. Phil Hughes hasn’t even had his yet. How can you say with certainty they’ll never be more than mediocre.
I’d hang on to Hughes and Joba, but my reasoning is admittedly sentimental and/or speculative. I love watching both of them pitch, and I have a soft spot for homegrown talent. Both pitchers have demonstrated the ability to dominate the opposition; I think at least one of them will eventually blossom into a top-tier starter.
As good as Halladay has been, I could see him falling apart physically early on in a long-term deal. He’s 32, already 20th among active pitchers in IP, you have to wonder how much he’s got in the tank.
Here’s the real question with Halladay. Would you rather have him and have a rotation of CC/Doc/AJ one of Hughes/Joba and then a huge question mark after this year (assuming Pettite hangs them up) or would you rather have CC/AJ/Hughes/Joba with the possibility of signing Beckett, Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb, or Ted Lilly (who are all about the same age as Doc) plus still have money left over to sign someone from Mauer, Victor Martinez, Carl Crawford, Dunn, Werth ect.
You can’t boil this move down to simply trading Joba/Hughes for Doc. The fact that either Joba or Hughes (or both) could be front-line starters without making ace money is huge. I don’t think they trade for Doc because they don’t want their hands tied for the huge free agent class that is coming next year.
40 Comments
Knoblog December 3, 2009 23:29
Though Tombstone was a sick movie (Val Kilmer=Jesus) I wouldn’t trade either.
Knoblog December 3, 2009 23:29
Though Tombstone was a sick movie (Val Kilmer=Jesus) I wouldn’t trade either.
a nony mouse December 3, 2009 23:29
i wouldnt trade either since doc is 32. i would however try to make a deal with either (not both) for king felix. trading either for doc would be a 2003 yankee move.
adam December 3, 2009 23:55
if i had to give up one it would probably be joba, but i dont see why this is the right move now with a 32 year old halladay and it was wrong with a 28 year old santana, you’re giving up money and prospects for a guy whose best days are probably coming to an end. i’d be nice to have him, but not at the cost.
vinny-b December 3, 2009 23:56
if you have the chance to turn Joba into Doc Halladay, you do it before Toronto can change their mind. You receive the best pitcher in baseball for the top of the rotation and eliminate a problem in the process.
would not be opposed to a package of: Joba and Romine for Halladay. However, that is where it ends. No Jesus Montero for Toronto. No Hughes. And no Austin Jackson.
Evil Empire December 4, 2009 01:21
Vinny-B:
Agree on no to Joba/Hughes/Montero but … no Austin Jackson? Now that’s a trade piece I would give up for Doc. Let’s not fall too far in love with our prospects now.
vinny-b December 4, 2009 07:53
evil empire: i mean no austin jackson in combination with Chamberlain. If austin jackson is the lone center piece in the deal (unlikely), different story.
Butcher December 4, 2009 07:57
I’d trade both of those guys for Halladay. Neither has proven they can even complete a full season as a starter. Hughes did well as a set up man, but I doubt he’ll ever be a decent starter. Joba seems to be going down hill. His control isn’t as good as it was when he came up. He’s just not as dominating.
If you can sign the best pitcher in the AL and extend him…why not?
The King Felix thing is a pipe dream…Seattle is never trading him.
Elliot Spitzer December 4, 2009 08:17
Are you kidding me? You’d trade a 24-year-old who is three years into the same process as 2001 Roy Halladay for old man Halladay himself? Like Joba, the infallible Roy “Jesus Christ as a ginger” Halladay sucked in the third year of his career. But he worked out those kinks. Anyway, why would they trade Joba this year when his trade value has declined(don’t tell me what fancraps says. think for yourself)?
This is the same dog-and-pony show the Blue Jays pulled last year and Heyman and his cronies are making up things they “heard” from “a rival GM.” Someone should trade an literal sack of shit for Vernon Wells, though
In The Bummy December 4, 2009 08:47
Get Harden, Pettitte and Matt Holliday instead. Keep Joba and Hughes. Goodbye to Damon and Matsui.
What were Doc’s stats on the second half last year?
Tim Sherman December 4, 2009 08:50
I agree that you trade either one in addition to either Jackson or Montero if you can get Halladay. Having him in the rotation would almost guarantee a playoff berth for the next 3 or 4 years. None of the three prospects is ready to dominate at the major league level, which is what Halladay does. The Yankees have other catching prospects in their system who are a couple years away, which is about where Montero is. I do the deal if it’s at all possible.
anthony December 4, 2009 09:50
def wouldnt trade jesus montero
that would be a mistake
i dont care who we get in return
Philip December 4, 2009 09:54
Joba and Hughes have not shown me they can be even a 5th starter on this team, if Joba could get his ERA lower than his BAC that would be a miracle in itself. There is not a team that could contend with us if we got Halladay. A-Jax, Hughes, Joba Romine could all go, I would however agree that Montero is off limits
anthony December 4, 2009 09:54
clearly none of you guys have seen jesus montero otherwise you wouldnt be including him for a 30+yr old pitcher.
we didnt give prospect for johan, why would we do it now? Especially after signing CC and AJ last year
Butcher December 4, 2009 10:11
You guys talk about Halladay like he’s some over the hill bum. The guy’s been a stud on one of the worst teams in baseball. He had a good 2nd half last year, but not up to his standards…probably because he had to deal with that idiot Richardi trying to trade him for what seemed like forever.
I’d trade Joba/Hughes and Montero for him. Montero is/will be a great hitter, but he’s a full time DH on this team long term. There’s no other spot for him with A Rod and Tex on the team long term. His defense at the C position is not acceptable on the MLB level.
Butcher December 4, 2009 10:16
With a rotation of CC, Halladay, AJ, Pettite, and whoever…it’s game over for the next three or four years.
But hey if you guys want to hold onto a hope that Joba or Hughes will turn into something eventually…great.
I just think it’s a dumb move.
Trev December 4, 2009 10:37
Get Halladay with any combo of prospects if there’s an extension involved. Halladay is dominant and still in the prime of his career. This team is built to win right now, not for four years from now when Joba or Hughes MAY be #1 or #2 starters, or when Jesus MAY still be a catcher (I’d rather just get Mauer anyway).
Only reason not to do it is if getting Halladay impedes on the Yankees ability to sign Mauer when he becomes a free agent.
Butcher December 4, 2009 11:00
Trev I agree 100%. This team is built to win now. Mauer is proven and when he’s a FA he should be the Yankees #1 priority. Montero I just don’t ever see being a MLB catcher. He’s a 1B/DH.
There’s no reason to think that Halladay won’t have 3-5 very good years ahead of him.
If they can trade and extend him for another 5 years. Why not? What’s the downside?
Kevin S. December 4, 2009 11:06
I wouldn’t count on Mauer becoming a FA. He’s local, not chasing the bottom dollar, and working on an extension as we speak. People often say “Oh, the new stadium will help them get more money” without having a clue as to what they’re talking about, but in Minny’s case, they’ll actually get the revenues from their luxury suites now, as opposed to having to fork those over to the Vikings. That’s something that will tangibly increase their ability to spend.
jme December 4, 2009 11:42
I’m surprised people are higher on Hughes than Joba. Hughes was great in the setup role IN THE REGULAR SEASON, but his post season was pretty lame. I dont recall him having any good starts in the regular season; as I recall, they were going to remove him from the rotation and send him down to AAA before they moved him to the bullpen. Joba had some great starts and some awful ones. I thought Joba was pretty decent out of the pen in the post season – Joba has grit and I dont think Hughes handles the pressure nearly as well – and Joba has better stuff. therefore, i would think Joba is more valuable than hughes
Frederick the Elephant December 4, 2009 11:46
When will people finally understand that postseason performances mean nothing when evaluating a player overall? Swisher and Teixeira had awful postseasons. Should we get rid of them too? Cashman said it after the season ended. He doesnt even look at postseason performances when making decisions.
Kevin S. December 4, 2009 12:05
“I dont recall him having any good starts in the regular season; as I recall, they were going to remove him from the rotation and send him down to AAA before they moved him to the bullpen.”
Then you recall poorly. Hughes had two great starts, two bad starts, and two okay starts. They removed him because they had nothing else they could do with CMW, and then didn’t have the balls to stretch him back out after the Wanger went down.
Kevin S. December 4, 2009 12:07
My bad, one great and three okay starts. Small samples, certainly, but in his final three starts, he had 21 Ks and 3 BB in 18 innings, with only two HR.
IPK December 4, 2009 12:29
I give up any package that does not include Montero. Yankees have a window now to win a couple more world series. Roy is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Add him to a rotation of CC Aj Pettite and whoever and you have the best rotation in baseball. I think Joba and Hughes will both be very good, but will either be as good as Roy? I doubt it. The guy is simply amazing. No Montero. That is where I draw the line.
Steve December 4, 2009 12:57
“Joba and Hughes have not shown me they can be even a 5th starter on this team”
Except Joba did exactly that in 2009. What do you think a 5th starter looks like?
dayners81 December 4, 2009 15:58
Joba is 24 and has shown alot more as a starter than Hughes has, even if Joba’s lost a few ticks on the fastball he still 92-94 as a starter and has shown he can throw 4 pitches, 2 of them being plus pitches. Hughes is 89-92 as a starter but mostly sits around 90. He has only shown 2 pitches and struggled mightly trying to re learn his slider and change, his cutter did look pretty good out of the pen but that not going to be a out pitch for him as a starter.
Espn had a very good article up yesterday about this subject, if the yankee brass beleive that Joba and Hughes are going to end up as 4/5 starter or quality relievers than they should make the trade for Halladay. If they believe they are going top of the rotation starter than they keep them. Not sure where Montero fits in in the future but that kinda bat doesn’t come along very often, they should keep him unless its for a much younger pitcher like King Felix.
This team is built to win right now we probably have another 2-3 yr window with guys like Jeter and Mo. A rotaion of Halladay, CC, AJ, Pettite and Joba/Hughes/Wang/ IPK/ whoever gives us by far the best rotation in baseball and the best shot of repeating for the next couple days. I’m not worried in the least that Halladay will age poorly, he’s a big guy with an excellent injury history and take amazing care or himself and i believe with the movement on his pitches he be able to maintain a high performance level into his late 30′s much like Pettite has. This will play out alot like the Santana situation, the jays price will come down, if we could get him for Hughes Romine and a couple lower prospects i would do it now
dayners81 December 4, 2009 16:02
I meant a rotation of Halladay,CC,AJ, Pettite and whoever gives us the best rotation in baseball and the very best chance of repeating for the next few yrs.
greg 23 December 4, 2009 16:26
Wouldnt trade Hughs or Montero, everyone else is fair game for a 1-2 punch in the face of CC & Doc. In fact if you could do a Joba, Gardner & low level prospect or two for him it would be a steal.
greg 23 December 4, 2009 16:35
Id be more inclined to give more for Josh Johnson who may or may not be available. That arbitration clock is ticking.
Peter December 4, 2009 17:37
Take a look at the prospects Cash has traded in the last 10 years. Who would you now say – “Man, wish we had him back?”
As far as I am concerned, only Mike Lowell fits that bill. Then again, that is debatable because the Yanks would have never traded for ARod if Lowell were at third. I would have also kept Ted Lilly, because Jeff Weaver was a complete bust, but Lilly was really no big loss in the long run, either.
The point is – prospects always seem so much better before they turn into busts. Halladay, however, is better than anyone in the Yankees farm system will ever be – right now.
Kevin S. December 4, 2009 18:40
Lilly’s been better than one would think – he’s posted four 3+ WAR seasons since leaving the Bronx. Where they really screwed up with him was signing the K-Man instead because his posting fee wouldn’t be subject to the luxury tax. Argh!
Philip December 5, 2009 15:12
Lets see they had to bring in Gaudin and Mitre because Joba could not even make it out of the 4th inning near year’s end. This is insane, Hughes and Joba will never even sniff 150 career wins in fact if they do it combined it will be a surprise. Halladay is a workhorse and if they set up a L,R,L,R rotation with CC, Halladay, Pettite, Burnett who would even touch them? They could have Igawa as the 5th starter and still win the East by a dozen games
“Joba and Hughes have not shown me they can be even a 5th starter on this team”
Except Joba did exactly that in 2009. What do you think a 5th starter looks like
Steve December 5, 2009 15:22
Joba Chamberlain: 157 IP, 90 ERA+
That’s a 5th starter.
Nothing else you wrote makes any sense. 150 Wins?
Philip December 5, 2009 15:55
Well yes it does, as Halladay has 150 wins already and will likely get close to the 300 mark before he retires. You are advocating keeping Joba and Hughes who will strive for mediocrity, so what makes sense is to get someone who can help the Yankees win titles
Kevin S. December 5, 2009 16:27
Joba’s age-23 season was better than Halladay’s. Phil Hughes hasn’t even had his yet. How can you say with certainty they’ll never be more than mediocre.
Steve December 5, 2009 16:40
“You are advocating keeping Joba and Hughes who will strive for mediocrity, so what makes sense is to get someone who can help the Yankees win titles”
Where did I say anything about Halladay at all?
I challanged one statement, and only one: that neither Joba nor Hughes have shown they can be a #5 starter.
I would consider trading either of them for Halladay. That still doesn’t make what you said true.
Brendan December 6, 2009 00:03
I’d hang on to Hughes and Joba, but my reasoning is admittedly sentimental and/or speculative. I love watching both of them pitch, and I have a soft spot for homegrown talent. Both pitchers have demonstrated the ability to dominate the opposition; I think at least one of them will eventually blossom into a top-tier starter.
As good as Halladay has been, I could see him falling apart physically early on in a long-term deal. He’s 32, already 20th among active pitchers in IP, you have to wonder how much he’s got in the tank.
Chip December 6, 2009 12:13
Here’s the real question with Halladay. Would you rather have him and have a rotation of CC/Doc/AJ one of Hughes/Joba and then a huge question mark after this year (assuming Pettite hangs them up) or would you rather have CC/AJ/Hughes/Joba with the possibility of signing Beckett, Cliff Lee, Brandon Webb, or Ted Lilly (who are all about the same age as Doc) plus still have money left over to sign someone from Mauer, Victor Martinez, Carl Crawford, Dunn, Werth ect.
You can’t boil this move down to simply trading Joba/Hughes for Doc. The fact that either Joba or Hughes (or both) could be front-line starters without making ace money is huge. I don’t think they trade for Doc because they don’t want their hands tied for the huge free agent class that is coming next year.
wanger December 6, 2009 23:00
joba just needs to be filled with rage again and he will be dominant. he seemed like a guy on prozac this year. he probably is.
wanger December 6, 2009 23:01
and not in the good greinke on prozac kind of way…