Dear Yankee fans, stop clamoring for Johnny Damon
Wednesday, January 20, 2010 at 12:45 am by SJK
For the Yankee fans still urging the Yankees' FO to sign Johnny Damon, it's time to move on. The Yankees in-house options are fine.
First, by all reports, the Yankees are at the edge of their budget right now, and unless Damon is willing to take a enormous pay cut, he's not coming back. And considering Jerry Hairston signed for $2.12 million, we don't think Damon will settle for that type of cash. Come on, you all know he has X-Men genetics and the body of Lee Haney. He's the new Cal Ripken and better than Rickey Henderson.
Second, is his overall production going to be significantly better than any of the potential starting OFs on the Yankee roster? Will it even be better at all? The man will be 36 and one could make a serious argument that 2009 was his best offensive season ever. Is it reasonable to assume some dropoff in 2010? We think so. And we all know about his defense last season.
And for whatever it's worth, the virgin fans who make their own projections at Fangraphs have Damon being outperformed on an overall basis (defense included) by Brett Gardner (in 170 less PAs, mind you).
So whether you put faith in those projections or not, we think most people would agree that logically, once you take out the CLUBHOUSE CHEMISTRY!! rationale, we don't see how the re-signing of Johnny Damon would make the Yankees that much better, if at all.
Looks like Scotty and Johnny priced themselves out of the market.
*Props to Mick Shrimpton, Vizzini, Marshall Seymour, & Michael Knight for also contributing to this post*
Bruce – I believe Hawpe’s defense was one of, if not, the worst (statistically speaking). His offense seems to be hit or miss. It’s either an overall good year or a down year. Add that with his defense and I don’t view him as anything special.
Gardner is a guy who’s defense is so good that it brings positive value. He won’t do much with his bat, but he’ll save runs with his glove. His offense should be decent enough where it won’t kill us and he’ll have great defense. That makes his overall value pretty good. At worst I think he’ll be as valuable as Damon.
As for Hoffmann…everything I’ve read about him was good, save for his offense. He can play LF, CF, and RF. I believe I read somewhere that RF was his best overall position, but he seems to be average at worst at the other positions, and many have stated his defense is at least above average at all positions. It’s hard to get a read on a guy like that because sometimes guys overhype their own prospects, etc…so we really won’t know how his overall defense is until we see him play. As for his offense, he has POTENTIAL, but it’s the type where the chances of him reaching his ceiling are nearly impossible. He’ll most likely wind up a decent defensive guy who could hit every once in a while. I personally view him as a better OF version of Eric Hinske. Hinske has some pop, but is inconsistent. I think Hoffmann could have the same type of pop, but really won’t show much of it except in limited quantities. I think Hoffmann could definitely be a solid bench guy, but he most likely will only get the chance if he has a strong spring.
I really hope more people hop on the Gardner bandwagon. He’s been great when correcting his mistakes. He realized 2 main things (which he’s going to be working on and fixing):
1.) Be more aggressive on pitches in the strikezone. He can walk, but I think he relied on that too much and pitchers keyed in on that and it held Brett back. I think he’ll be more aggressive and that he’ll challenge teams more with his speed.
2.) Bunt more. As stated, his speed is his best asset. The best way to challenge other teams is to bunt a ball down the line and beat the ball to the bag. He acknowledged in an interview that he didn’t bunt as much as he should have and I think other teams are going to be in real trouble because of that. Brett won’t hit homeruns, but imagine how amazing it’d be to have a guy on 1st with Brett up … then do a bunt and run and potentially wind up with 2 guys on base because of it…
Eight All-Stars and a guy who can bunt and steal.
Sounds terrible.
all i say is that they stole my photoshop idea, nomaas = bastards
I think Yankee fans are going to be real happy with Brett Gardner. I really hope that Joe Girardi and his staff fully evalute the Gardner/ Granderson option for Centerfield. If they do, Brett Gardner will be the Yanks Centerfielder and Curtis will be an All-star Leftfielder. This defense makes the Yankees even better.
I’m all for wearing silky/satiny garments. Now, you may ask: What does that have to do with Damon?
I’m trying to figure that one out myself. Smooth as silk maybe?
The Yanks should sign Candy Maldonado to play LF.
Nobody mentions Ron Kuby anymore.
“At worst I think he’ll be as valuable as Damon.”
I like Gardner, but boy this is quite an optimistic statement! Did you watch any games last season and see how Damon took advantage of the new park? He had 24 home runs and an OPS of .854 and, while you would expect some regression, it is going to take an awful lot of good defense in LF (not a defensive position in any case) to make up for the gap in offense. Unfortunately the worst case is that he will be so far less valuable than Damon that he will not hold down the starting job. Let’s hope not, but we should be realistic.
Well, Gardner is a hell of a lot better defensively than Damon was. Conservatively, he’s a +10 defender… in CF. Theoretically, we should be able to add the difference in positional adjustments when we move him to left, but let’s be conservative again and only give him half of that, making him a +15 defender in LF. Damon was a -15 defender. If Gardner provided replacement-level offense, the defensive difference alone would make him as valuable as Damon (since Damon has never been worth +30 runs offensively). Of course, despite Butcher thinking that any attempt to objectively evaluate Gardner is elevating him above DiMaggio, we know Gardner is not replacement-level, offensively. He provides a decent enough on-base percentage, and he’s really good at stealing bases. He hits in front of a guy who drives the vast majority of his prodigious offensive value from singles and doubles, the exact types of batting events that a fast runner can best leverage by stealing/taking the extra base.
If Gardner can get on base 34-35% of the time, provide top notch defense, and steal bases…then how is he not valuable?
“If Gardner can get on base 34-35% of the time, provide top notch defense, and steal bases…then how is he not valuable?”
Exactly. Right now everyone thinks HR is the most important thing. We have big boppers already. We have Tex and A-Rod, plus Cano is starting to generate more power with his swing. We have Swisher, we have Posada, we have Granderson, etc. Hell, Nick Johnson is just a few years removed from hitting 20+ homers…in RFK!
People seem to forget that Damon was in a contract year, plus the rest of the offense was clicking. He sure didn’t take advantage of the short porch in September. So many people fail to realize that he also hit 20+ homeruns only THREE times in his career (twice with the Yankees). However, the first season he did that he also stole twice as many bases and played better defense (overall). This past season Damon had a career high in K’s (98) and a career high in OPS+. He also had his lowest SB total since his rookie season. Think about that for a second. A career high in K and a career high in OPS (that is nothing near his career average). That’s a little telling there. It means he’s becoming a 1 dimensional player (HR). His career OPS+ is 105, yet he was 126 last season.
Damon took advantage of the new stadium, but it was an aberration. He tied a career high in HR, but a lot of them shouldn’t have been homers. Take away about 8 “cheap” homeruns and his overall numbers wouldn’t be nearly as appealing as they were. 24 HR and 82 RBI? Imagine if it were closer to 16 HR and 70 RBI, while only stealing 12 bases and sporting a .280 average, while also playing horrendous defense.
That is why homeruns are overrated, they mask what’s really going on. Yes, the power was nice, but a big chunk of his homeruns could have easily been fly ball outs if the wind had blown in 1 or 2 mph more. He is 1 dimensional.
We got Nick Johnson to fill the DH role, because he’s 1 dimensional and that’s what the DH spot should be used for. Johnson gets on base. It’s an element that does nothing except help the Yanks score more runs. Sure, his speed leaves a LOT to be desired, but he has the guys who hit homeruns coming up behind him, so it really doesn’t matter since he’ll be jogging home very often.
Now look at Gardner. If he gets on base like he did last season, but over the course of a full season, he will be truly great for us. Again, I’m not saying he’ll be an All-Star caliber player, but he will score runs and make the opposing pitchers nervous on the mound. So many Yankee fans want Carl Crawford…well here’s Crawford minus the power/avg. Gardner has the speed to steal 60 bases if he gets on base like he did last season. He’ll also over sac bunts and keep out of double plays. Anyone here remember Damon attempting to bunt? Wasn’t it Victor Martinez, playing 1st, who was able to run from 1st base into foul territory to snag a bunt pop up that Damon hit? Yeah, great bunting there.
Listen, I’ve always liked Damon, especially his personality, but sometimes you have to let go. The Red Sox do it better than anyone. They treat it like a business. No loyalty. There are times when I think you need to overpay to keep certain guys, but in the end it’s business. Damon would cost a lot more than Gardner and, in the end, would he really outproduce Gardner that much? My gut says no. Gardner plays great defense, will save runs with his glove, and will score runs with his speed. Right now all Damon has is a bat…and the hope that the wind is blowing 1-2 mph in the direction that favors his swing.
If Gardner can get on base 35% of the time I will dance an Irish jig in Time Square. More realistic is 32% of the time. Not good enough for a guy with no power.
“If Gardner can get on base 35% of the time I will dance an Irish jig in Time Square. More realistic is 32% of the time. Not good enough for a guy with no power.”
You do realize Gardner had an OBP of .345 last year, right? If he went an entire season then he’d have had tons more steals. He had 26 steals in 248 at bats. Imagine if he got 500 at bats. That’d be 52 steals. I’d take that in a heartbeat.
Hell, Gardner’s OBP was higher than Melky’s was last year. Melky has only had 1 season higher than that (.360 his first full year). I thik Gardner is definitely capable of putting up solid numbers. Something people need to realize is Gardner will be hitting from the last spot of the order. A number 9 hitter ffs and people are saying he sucks? I guess us Yankee fans have gotten greedy at having an All-Star at every position because other teams would kill to have a player of Gardner’s caliber as their NINE hitter. A nine hitter people. Come on. Stop whinning as if Gardner is going to be the cleanup hitter in this lineup.
Jets are in the AFC Championship game.
Brett Gardner should be the RB for the Jets.
“Hell, Gardner’s OBP was higher than Melky’s was last year”
Who cares he isnt replacing Melky, he’s replacing Damon who had a 854 OPS last year.
Seriously hops of my nutz sons.
Brett Gardner run so fast he make you ejaculate.
“Who cares he isnt replacing Melky, he’s replacing Damon who had a 854 OPS last year.”
Because many people were hating on Gardner, yet loving Melky. It was for comparison.
As for Damon. Yeah, an OPS of .854. And if you read my other post you’d notice his OPS+ was miles ahead of his career OPS+ which shows that it was an aberration. He’s a year older. Do you honestly think he’ll have another career year in terms of overall offense? I doubt it. Normally players don’t get better as they age and Damon is starting to show his age. His defense is gone. His speed is diminishing. There is a reason why no other teams will even try to get him for cheap. He doesn’t fit any other team because they realize that Damon’s power is slipping. He’s got an ugly swing and 8 of his 24 homers were thanks to the stadium. They would have been outs in other parks. They were lazy fly balls that just got over the fence. His defense and speed are going. He’s a liability in the outfield now and we don’t have room in the DH spot for him. So where do we put him? We DON’T HAVE ROOM. This is a problem fans on every team have…they like to pay for past performances. Damon had a nice season, but they forgot how he was non-existant in September. Then all of a sudden he fought off a few pitches, got a hit, and had a double steal. Now people want to keep him because that’s the last thing they remember about him. He does that and all is forgiven, yet when he’s running around like a chicken with it’s head cutoff in LF, trying to catch a fly ball, then people seem to forget it.
Oh and back on the topic of OPS…
.841, .747, .836, .854
Those are the OPS in each of his 4 years here. His average OPS as a Yankee was .821. He’s been above average in that department because he’s always taken advantage of the short porch. His CAREER OPS is only .794. He’s going to be year older, can’t play defense, can’t throw, doesn’t seem to try to steal much anymore, and his offense revolves around getting the ball over the wall in RF. His strikeouts are up as well. I think this year was the beginning of the end for him.
Garnder up on you quick like a horny date.
I cant believe these robots think im better than Johhny Damon.
Not only will he have an obp over 350, but if they let him play fulltime and give him the green light he will have 35 steals, over 80% success, and 40 runs by the all-star break.
That’s a prediction.
And the Jets are gonna smother Peyton and the horsies.
i cant believe its not butter
And the Jets are gonna smother Peyton and the horsies.
You know that Revis can’t cover Wayne, Clark, Addai, Garcon and Collie at the same time, right? Peyton’s the master at getting the most out of his secondary options.
Gardy11 says:
January 21, 2010 at 5:53 pm
I cant believe these robots think im better than Johhny Damon.
“…we don’t see how the re-signing of Johnny Damon would make the Yankees that much better, if at all.”
You’re right. That’s the EXACT argument the article is proposing. Or not at all. Good job on interpreting the idea that Gardner isn’t that much worse than Damon as Gardner is much better than Damon.
Kevin S. – I’m going to have to agree with you on that. I’m a Giants fan, so I really have no stake in this post season. I do like the Colts though, but part of me wants to see the Jets go all the way since they were underdogs early on. I just don’t see the Jets beating the Colts though. Indy has a good run defense and if a team can stop the run agains the Jets…well…I don’t see how they can win with Sanchez going 90-120 yards a game.
As for Revis, the guy is a freak of nature. He’s been absolutely amazing this season. However, the Colts have so many weapons on offense that even a #3 WR of theirs can do damage against any team in the league.
Yeah, but, but, but, but… okay, you’re all correct.
But.
Noone gave them a chance to even make the playoffs.
Cincy was a toss up.
Nobody gave them a shred of a chance in SD.
And Indy was up by, what, 5, when they pulled their starters in week 17.
This defense is The Best.
They can do it.
And lose to Favre in the Super Bowl while Namath runs around kissing everybody.
I agree that nobody gave them a chance. I was actually hoping Cincy would win, but they really didn’t play like they deserved to win. In the end winning is all that matters, no matter how ugly it may look. The Jets are on a role and deserve to be where they are now. If they beat the Colts then they definitely deserve to go all the way. The Giants won a few years ago and at times it wasn’t pretty, but they still sent the Patriots home and that’s all that matters. And Namath…I remember watching that live. I thought he was on E or something.
Now back to baseball!
If the J-E-T-S make the Super Bowl, Suzy Kolber is gonna give him that kiss.
Ok, baseball.
yeah, how about we trade Nick Johnson to Baltimore, Texas, or Arizona (who all need a 1st Baseman)…
… and we sign Miguel Tejada to play
DH – 50 games
SS – 50 games
3B – 50 games
Right handed bat, still capable
And lets DJ and Alex rest their old bones splitting DH with Jorge.
why dont you all talk your jets talk in the nomaas forum you losers of life that have small penises
Bat Tejada 9th
Gardner 8th
And make sure Garnder steals second every single time he gets on to avoid the Miggy DP.
1. Jeter
2. Posada
3. Alex
4. Tex
5. Granderson
6. Swisher
7. Cano
8. Brett the Jet
9. Miguel Tejada
If Gardner plays LF/CF or LF and CF at the same time as we all know he is capable of…being that he’s the greatest player to ever play.
Who hits behind A Rod? You can’t hit Nick Johnson #2 and if you hit Granderson 2nd you have Nick Johnson, Posada, etc. hitting behind A Rod….just sayin. Losing Matsui begs the question who protects A Rod?
Granderson could, but oh we have to have Brett Gardner…Yankee legend hitting 9th…so we can’t have Damon in the 2 hole.
Maybe Yankee legend Brett Gardner can bat 2nd and 9th when he plays LF and CF at the same time?
What do you guys think?
We think you’ve now posted the same unfunny joke 15 times in one thread.
and butcher never uses stats to back up his arguments.
and why can’t Johnson hit 2nd? his obp will be over 400.
The reason they moved Jeter to leadoff is because of the insane amount of double plays he was hitting into. If you hit Johnson second how many double plays do you think he’s going to hit into…given he runs slower than probably any other player on the team…including Posada.
I’m just saying it makes sense to bat Granderson 2nd…as the lineup currently stands, but then who protects A Rod?
I just don’t see any protection, besides Granderson, for A Rod in this lineup. Maybe I am wrong, but no one other than Granderson would keep me honest if I was a manager.
If you have Tex on first and A Rod up with one or two outs…who in this lineup would cause you to not pitch around A Rod?
Genuine concern? Am I over thinking this point?
you are overthinking. Posada and Matsui have been virtually identical hitters for their careers. Why is Posada incapable of doing the job Matsui did last year?
First off, Nick Johnson isn’t good for the number 2 hole? He’s what you freaking look for in a #2 hitter! Yeah, he’ll hit into double plays every now and then, but it isn’t to the point where it’s crippling. In 8 seasons he’s hit into 72 double plays; in 15 seasons Jeter has hit into 213. Jeter was a double play machine (to get an idea…in 15 seasons Damon only hit into 84). Curtis Granderson barely hits into any, but keep in mind he was leading off and didn’t have as many opportunities, plus he strikes out a ton…
Now onto my next point. You’re seriously suggesting that Nick Johnson would be bad in the #2 hole? His OPS+ is 125…1 less than Johnny Damon last year (which was far and away his highest ever). He has an OBP over .400! Johnson will most likely have a line of something like .280/.415/15/75 and score well over 100 runs. He’s not the fastest guy, but he doesn’t need to be since he has Teixeira behind him. Teixeira will hit 30-40 HR and considering Johnson gets on base at a .400 clip…that means he’ll be on base during a lot of Tex’s HRs.
And you’re complaining because we don’t have anyone to protect A-Rod? Posada hit 22 HR and 81 RBI last year with a .285 AVG. Matsui hit 28 HR and 90 RBI with a .273 AVG. Jorge had a higher SLG% than Matsui did…
Seriously, everyong seems to be loving Matsui. I remember this time LAST YEAR people were talking about trading Matsui to the San Francisco Giants for crying out loud. Earlier in the season people were complaining how he should be cut, traded, not re-signed. Then he has a good post season and now he’s “the missing piece”? I liked Matsui, he was 1 of my favorite Yankees, but come on. He’s a year older and can’t do anything but DH. At least Nick Johnson could play 1st base if he had to (I’d rather not since I don’t want him hurt). The only reason Matsui is being loved right now is because of what he did in the post season. I’m happy with what he did and I’m so glad he was able to finally win a championship while here … but you can’t hold onto every old player, especially 1 with no knees. So backto my original argument…Posada performed that, had he been in the #5 hole with more opportunities to drive in runs, his numbers would have been higher than Matsui’s… (Posada OPS+ = 133 ; Matsui OPS+ = 131). Yeah, Posada is capable.
Well if you predict a fall off for Damon…wouldn’t you also have to predict a fall off for Posada as well? Especially at the C position. Especially because he’s hurt all the time now too.
I don’t think Posada will ever play a full season again.
My fear is come August you have Posada on the DL, Johnson on the DL, and no one to protect A Rod. This scenario isn’t far fetched and is actually a pretty good bet to happen given history.
At least if you have Damon, which I admit is also a DL liability, you can still bat him in the two hole and not lose the protection for A Rod. I don’t think Damon will spend a lot of time on the DL this year though…if any if you use him the right way.
There’s always a chance Posada could drop off. However, I think that they’ll give him enough rest where he’ll get a lot of playing time, but won’t get worked to the bone. Had Posada come back from injury and had a terrible year then I’d be a lot worried, but he showed he still has something left in the tank (plus he’s the type who seems like he’ll want to play forever). Damon on the other hand…I just don’t get the same vibe from him because he’s fallen off so much, so fast in 1 area already. Posada always had a so-so arm and it’s worse now because he hurt it and had surgery. Damon never had an arm, but now his fielding is just god awful. We’re talking about a guy who used to be a pretty damn good centerfielder who can’t even track a fly ball in LF anymore… Plus we’re already paying Posada while Damon’s contract is done. Once Posada’s contract is done I think it’ll be time to move on because, as stated, he’s getting older and you can’t pay for past performances (I think Jeter will be the exception).
As for the scenario of Posada and Johnson on the DL … if that were the case then I think Cano would move to the #2 hole and Granderson would move to #5, or vice-versa. Granderson offers pop, but he also has some speed. He’s the kind of guy who could hit anywhere in the lineup. He can leadoff, he can bat 2nd, he can bat cleanup, he can boost the bottom of the order, etc. Cano isn’t as versatile, but given the fact that he’s a contact hitter I could see him getting another shot in the #2 hole. He doesn’t walk, but he doesn’t K much either. I think that if we were to lose Posada and Johnson that no matter who we plug in we’ll still be hurting. If any team lost 2 players like that they’d be hurt. But let’s not forget…we DO still have Juan Miranda. I’m not saying he’s the answer or anything, but the guy does have some power and could be a great DH. If we lost Johnson then, if there weren’t any good free agents/cheap trade options, Miranda would be the first guy I’d plug in.
I realize I dodged around some of the main argument there, but it’s hard to talk about scenarios that may or may not happen. Damon may heal like Wolverine, but he may get hurt next year. Nick Johnson has had tons of freak accients, and he may get hurt next year. I don’t know if Posada will be able to play the way he has, but first and for most, the main reason I think he won’t fall off like Damon is because he’s still consistent. Posada had a 2009 OPS+ of 133. His career OPS+ is 124. Damon’s 2009 OPS+ was 126. His career OPS+ is 105. I just think Posada offers more stability…
You make good points with the Cano/Granderson move.
I just think it’s a lot to put on Posada to bat him 5th. My one concern with this team all off season has been the lack of any protection for A Rod. I was excited because I thought Granderson would be the protection and we’d sign Damon.
I just think with Posada going to be 39…even if has a good season and plays in 110-120 games. You still need someone for the other 60 or so games to protect A Rod. Maybe Swisher could?
That’s pretty much my only concern with this team. Not a huge one, but still something to keep an eye on.
I don’t feel Posada will make the whole season this year.
I agree this is his last year.
if yall took all these point of views to the forum, the forum would be enjoyable and alive
Swisher potentially could offer protection. Don’t forget that 1 season Swisher did hit 35 HR. His average leaves a lot to be desired, but he does have some pop. He also gets on base at a good clip. He had a .371 OBP and .869 OPS and 129 OPS+ (both career highs). He’s got the bat that could protect A-Rod, plus he was very good at protecting the plate. He did strike out a lot, but he also knows how to take a walk. They could also toy with Granderson in the 5 hole. He’s got a legit bat. He also puts speed on the base paths. The only problem with Granderson (and Swisher experiences it to some degree as well) are the strikeouts. I have a feeling Kevin Long will work with Granderson to remove some holes from his swing. If Granderson could compact his swing a bit more then he could very well become the legit power threat in Yankee Stadium that everyone projects (I’m talking about the 40 HR version). I still view Posada as the best guy to protect A-Rod.
And I’ll say this. Regardless of who we plug in behind A-Rod, it will be a guy who can hit (even if he does strike out a lot). I doubt pitchers will constantly walk A-Rod to get to the guy behind him because the guy behind him could make the pitcher pay. Think about it this way. Say they walk A-Rod and Posada is behind him. Well then Posada gets to sit on a pitch because he’s got Granderson behind him. They start getting worried because then Granderson will have Cano protecting him. And Cano has Swisher protecting him. And Swisher can take a walk, and Gardner has the speed where he could lay down a sac bunt and possibly even be safe on it…
We have an interesting lineup this year. It offers a bit more flexibility in my eyes.
Jesus Montero needs to be ready for the MLB’s already and solve all these problems haha.
damn, cervelli at the plate for 40-50 games is a little scary.
Is Cervelli going to be AJ’s caddy?
If you have Tex on first and A Rod up with one or two outs…who in this lineup would cause you to not pitch around A Rod?
Genuine concern? Am I over thinking this point?
What’s more likely, A-Rod scoring Teixeira from first on a gap double (down the line won’t get him home) or better, or an inferior scoring Teix from second on a single or better?
What’s more likely, A-Rod scores both of them on a home run, or inferior player scores both of them on a double or better? It’s exceedingly rare (and almost always stupid) to intentionally walk a player with a guy already on first base. Advancing the lead runner = not smart. Even with the base open, A-Rod being on first base increases run expectancy. It’s not like Rey Ordonez is backing him up – most of the Yankee hitters are good enough that the difference between A-Rod and “other hitter + extra baserunner” isn’t worth trading off for.
Re: Johnson, Jeter and GIDP, Johnson’s hit ground balls in 28% of his PA since ’02, Jeter 41%. Hitting the ball on the ground is a bigger determinate of DP-inducing abilities than speed.
I think Brian Cashman is 12to6
So let’s see, The Yankees pay a lot of money for guys like Kevin Brown and Jason Giambi, yet somehow they cant reach a little deeper for the player who was as responsible for the Yankees winning it all as any one else on this team? I know how much everyone loves Nick Johnson’s OBP but the Yanks will miss Damon sorely. He was in the middle of most of the Yankees major offensive rallies last year.
The Red Sox missed Damon so much they won another championship with JD Drew. Damon is replaceable as seen by the team who perennially wins the wild card in the AL. Gardner should be the starting CF which elevates his D and than we can expect less offense and move Granderson to LF elevating his D and his offense. Either way the Yanks have a much stronger defensive team in the OF this year despite Nick Swhish still playing RF.