Phil or Joba, Joba or Phil. While NoMaas’ fascist regime typically crushes free speech among its ranks, we have mercifully allowed our writers to openly debate about who should be the Yankees’ 5th starter in 2010.
We will present the debate in two parts. Tonight, we begin with the case for Phil Hughes as presented by your favorite Sicilian, Vizzini:
Phil should start over Joba
1) He’s better. For whatever reason, Joba lost velocity on his fastball last year and was ineffective as a starter, posting a 4.75 ERA over 157 IP. His k/9 fell to 7.6, his k/bb was an unacceptable 1.75, and his GB rate dropped to 43%.
Even after adjusting for role (RPs have a significant advantage in posting better stats), Hughes was clearly the better pitcher last year and established himself as the better prospect going forward. A k/9 of 10.1 and a k/bb of 3.43, netted Hughes a 3.03ERA. Hughes was worth 2.2 wins above replacement to Joba’s 1.5 – in 71 less innings.
Three years ago, Phil Hughes was the top pitching prospect in all of baseball (Baseball America ranked Joba Chamberlain the 75th best prospect overall). Joba overtook Hughes with two years of brilliant major league pitching and the Yankees were right to give him starter staus ahead of Hughes at that point. But, now we have more data and it points to Hughes being back on top.
2. His arm needs less protection. Hughes has had some bad injury luck in the majors – pulled hamstring, strained oblique, cracked rib. But they were not arm injuries that would likely be exacerbated by throwing a starter’s workload. Hughes pitched 238 innings in the minors without any significant injuries, and his highly regarded mechanics should continue to insulate him from arm trouble.
The reason the Yankees were able to draft Joba with the 41st pick of the 2006 draft is that teams were scared off by his injury risk. He had already suffered from triceps tendinitis in his college career, and his violent delivery made teams wary of his ability to post starter innings. Not long after he was made a starter in 2008, he was forced to the DL with rotator cuff tendinitis. His arm did not hold up as a full time SP in 2009, as his skills got progressively worse as the innings piled up.
The Yankees’ top priorites with Joba Chamberlain should be to protect his health and to put him in a role that gives him the best chance to return to being an elite pitcher. That means making him Mo’s setup man.
3. He has the better repertoire to be a starter. Joba Chamberlain is essentially a two-pitch pitcher: he uses his fastball to setup his slider. He threw those pitches 86% of the time as a starter last year. He can be dominating with just those two pitches, but major league hitters are likely to have success when they see him a second and third time in a game. Hughes has the ability to mix in more pitches (fastball, cutter, curve, slider, change) to give hitters a different when he faces them for multiple plate appearances.
…ball’s in your court, Joba-fluffers.
*Props to Stringfellow Hawke for also contributing to this post




48 Comments
Last Night I Dreamed I Was Playing Centerfield in Yankee Stadium in My Underwear January 31, 2010 21:52
I really think Kate should go back to Sawyer and forget about Jack.
Chuck January 31, 2010 22:01
Phil kept getting hurt but I think he was over throwing. He had way to much pressure on him. He was young. He had matured a bit and realizes he doesn’t have to strike out all 27 batters. He is still going to be great starter and should start. Tell Jaba go to the Pen.
I can't think of a clever name January 31, 2010 22:03
Both have potential to be great starters, but if Phil wins the spot Joba might not get another chance, while I feel that if Joba gets the start Phil will still have a chance next season.
BronxByTheBay January 31, 2010 22:07
It’s not easy to get the smell of smoke out of your hair, especially if you go through 2-3 packs a day.
BronxByTheBay January 31, 2010 22:12
Oh, and there’s something absolutely attractive about Randy Jackson. It’s why I’m drawn to American Idol.
AndrewYF January 31, 2010 22:15
I can’t believe, after all the moaning and groaning about Mike Francessca, that people are throwing Joba’s potential as a starter away after one slightly below average season.
Shelley Duncan January 31, 2010 22:35
PHIL’S UNDERBITE > JOBA’S BULLDOG FROM TOM & JERRY FACE!!! *SMASH*
BronxByTheBay January 31, 2010 22:47
Is Joba Jewish?
anti-redsox January 31, 2010 23:59
finally some good photoshop
i stil think joba is the better starter, hughes after a couple of innings teams seam to figure him out and hes not as effective, joba has shown me more, but i still think they both should start
Vinnyus2002 February 1, 2010 02:09
LOL!
House on a Hill February 1, 2010 02:24
I think the Yankees built up Joba’s innings to let him start.
Butcher February 1, 2010 07:53
I like both of them in the starting role. For this year I think it’s better to go with Joba.
If the Yankees would stop screwing around with his innings and just let the kid pitch last year…we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. He was on pace to have a great year before they screwed with his head.
Phil to the pen…Joba to start…with the caveat that Phil one day will be a starter…just not this day.
Greg Oden's Long Penis February 1, 2010 08:36
anti-red sox: There’s only room for 1 of them to start. Imbecile.
In The Bummy February 1, 2010 08:40
They both stink!#! Trade ‘em for Hanley Ramirez!?!!
Steve February 1, 2010 08:59
If the Yankees would stop screwing around with his innings and just let the kid pitch last year…we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
says you. backed by jack sh*t.
Zips February 1, 2010 09:12
mitre or gaudin #5, keep joba and phil in the pen
Steve February 1, 2010 10:04
really?
Butcher February 1, 2010 11:15
Steve compare Joba’s numbers, last year, before they set rules on him…compared to after. Read Joba’s quotes about the situation. He knew he was on an innings count so he wasted a lot of pitches. He wouldn’t have pitched the same way if he was going to go 6-7 innings. He admitted it.
Or just sit there and talk trash at me…that’s fine too LOL. You guys crack me up.
Jon February 1, 2010 11:52
A lot of this is going to be determined by how much Phil’s development was hurt by being a reliever for most of the year. When he first came out of the bullpen, he threw his curveball quite often. But as the year moved on, he was almost strictly fastball. His changeup wasn’t used at all. What his curveball and changeup look like this spring is going to go a long way in this decision.
Joba is in the opposite situation. He can throw his slider, which is one of the best in baseball, in his sleep. It’s his fastball that’s disappeared. There was a time when Joba had the unquestionably better fastball, but not anymore — that goes to Phil now. Phil clearly has better command of his fastball, too.
So it’s not really about who’s better. It’s just about if Phil’s secondary pitches are there or if Joba’s velocity is back. If the latter is true, then the job is probably his.
swedski February 1, 2010 11:57
Gotta say lots of trash talk here but the real point is this:
1) IF the Yanks have a ‘Plan’ then after a year of Jobarules he has to start.
2) Same plan: then Phil does a year more in the bullpen then goes into the rotation.
Otherwise this is all bs and I will be pissed at the Yanks for screwing up
Steve February 1, 2010 11:59
Steve compare Joba’s numbers, last year, before they set rules on him…compared to after. Read Joba’s quotes about the situation.
so what? you have no information on what would happened if they “let him pitch”. maybe he gets hurt?
Also, if they “let him pitch”, the consequence of that decision would have meant shutting him down in October when he hit his innings cap. Given that Hughes hit a wall in October and Joba was our most valuable RHed setup man in the playoffs, who knows if that course of action would have cost them a championship.
No way of knowing that. But I, unlike you, don’t claim to know that either.
Butcher February 1, 2010 12:12
Steve, but I do have the information based upon how they did handle him…and it was wrong. He didn’t pitch as well and then they placed the blame on him.
Not sure if you remember, but they were talking about leaving him off the playoff roster altogether at one point. So I find it hard to get down on a 25 year old kid who’s pitched beyond his years so far on the MLB level. I think the Yankees handled Joba TERRIBLY last year…and if they did lose in the playoffs or WS it’d be because of the way they handled him. He’s a big strong kid that WANTS to pitch. He doesn’t want to be limited. At some point you have to let him go.
Hughes has not…Hughes has had more time in the minors and not had as much MLB success…that’s not entirely his fault, but I am just tending to err on the side of Joba based upon MLB performance.
Butcher February 1, 2010 12:21
to clarify…if they messed this kid up so bad by limiting his innings…that it caused them to treat him like a child and leave him off the playoff roster altogether…then maybe the yanks don’t win the WS…maybe they still do…but he made a great contribution in the playoffs…
despite how badly yankee management handled him.
Steve February 1, 2010 12:24
I don’t think the gamelogs really support this notion that Joba was kicking ass before the Yankees starting holding him back.
The facts say that he was having a VERY uneven season before they scaled back his innings. He had 3 great starts after the all-star break, and that is what everyone is remembering.
But the fact is that his velocity was all over the map, his control was terrible, and he had all sorts of varying results.
Which is fine for a 24 year starter, don’t get me wrong. The important thing was for Joba to stay healthy and get in his innings.
But he was struggling WAY before they altered his schedule. I know it’s much easier to blame the team than to blame Joba, but the facts just don’t really line up with the media and fan caterwauling (most of it coming from people who wanted Joba in the bullpen anyway) over the Joba rules.
The yankees handled him fine. Unless you were 100% willing to scrap the innings cap altogether, there really wasn’t going to be an ideal way to make it work. They tried skipping starts, he didn’t like it. They tried shorter outings on regular rest, he didn’t like it.
So, yeah, it’s really easy for you to say “Just let him pitch, he’s big and strong”, but we have NO IDEA if that is right or not and I find the certainty with which you express your opinion to be totally unsupportable.
Steve February 1, 2010 12:25
to clarify…if they messed this kid up so bad by limiting his innings…that it caused them to treat him like a child and leave him off the playoff roster altogether…then maybe the yanks don’t win the WS…maybe they still do…but he made a great contribution in the playoffs…
In other words, if they did something that they actually didn’t do, that would have been wrong?
stickq February 1, 2010 12:26
Phuey, Joba shouldn’t need an innings cap. In this baseball era of specialization pitchers have become soft. I blame the organization on the whole for that, these guys should be conditioned to throw 200 plus innings in the minors, and that means in addition to their starts they throw on the side. It’s just like how outfielders barely throw long toss before the games these days and then we wonder why they have noodle arms, because they aren’t conditioned. By the time Roger Clemens was Joba’s age he threw 100 more innings. It is a bunch of crap to put a cap on a young seemingly healthy player.
Also, to tell someone they are done after 150 innings changes their perspective on what they do with those innings. Not to say Joba would have been better at 200 but if you know you are going to be yanked in the third inning that is going to screw with your mental approach to the game.
Steve February 1, 2010 12:45
Roger Clemens may be the greatest RHed pitcher in history.
Is he really the baseline? Or is it the population of pitchers that DO include some injuries?
I don’t disagree that Joba needed more time in the minors to build himself up, but I’d love to see the reactions of these same fans in an alternate universe where the Yankees have a guy crapping on everyone in the minors for 2 years while the big league team is locked in a pennant race. I’m sure everyone would be quite reasonable about that.
Jimbear February 1, 2010 14:41
stickq is right about this predetermined inning craps. Mechanics usually determine how many pitches are in a starter’s arm. Look through history you’ll see guys who logged 250 innings year after year.These guys are babied.
Any way Joba belongs in the bullpen simply because that is where he can be most effective. His body language is different as a reliever. He wants to fire heat and snap off his slider.
He doesn’t have same confidence or effectiveness as a starter. He’s a real weapon in the pen. Keep him there.
Chip February 1, 2010 14:42
I think Joba gets the nod this season as the 5th starter but I think it’s very important to either use Hughes as a long man out of the pen/spot starter or have him start the year in AAA. This plan should have worked perfectly last season as Wang went down but Hughes was right there to pick up the slack and pitched extremely well. When Wang came back they put him back into the bullpen mostly pitching the 6th and 7th innings and getting his work in.
The problem began when Jose Veras, Brian Bruney and Edwar Ramirez suddenly started to suck (which wasn’t surprising) and the Yankees needed stability in the back of the pen. Now suddenly we had Phil Hughes the one-inning reliever.
I think this year they either have to stick with the idea that he’s going to AAA to start until somebody gets hurt or is horribly ineffective or that he’s a multi-inning reliever and will pitch 100-120 innings out of the bullpen (which I realize is very difficult to do).
Chip February 1, 2010 14:44
Jimbear, the problem with him in the bullpen is that for one, he walks too many guys. The second problem is that he’s not nearly as valuable in the bullpen as he is as even an average starter.
I actually don’t think that we can label Joba as a two-pitch pitcher right now as his curve was about league average last year. Maybe if he gets in a few more pitchers counts this year we’ll see the deuce more often
Butcher February 1, 2010 14:55
What if Aceves blows them both away in ST and earns the job. Not saying it’s likely…but it is something to think about.
Steve February 1, 2010 14:58
Look through history you’ll see guys who logged 250 innings year after year.These guys are babied.
This is selection bias. For every one of these guys, there may be 5 guys who blew their arms out before 25.
Chip February 1, 2010 15:09
I don’t think there’s any actual competition outside of Hughes and Joba. Mitre, Gaudin and Aceves don’t really have much of a chance outside of injuries to actually win the 5th starter competition. Of course, if Mitre or Gaudin have huge springs, there’s a good chance they could be traded.
Butcher February 1, 2010 15:21
I don’t think Aceves has a shot either, but I like to root for a guy like that…no one is even talking about him, but he did a great job last year…a true dark horse.
Butcher February 1, 2010 15:27
I wonder how much these innings limits teams are putting on young guys are actually to blame for injuries.
Someone said it above…it’s all about mechanics. It’s not so much the workload.
Tank the Frank February 1, 2010 16:56
Phil should start over Joba
1) He’s better…
Yeah…. not so much. “Even after adjusting for role (RPs have a significant advantage in posting better stats), Hughes was clearly the better pitcher last year.”
That’s total nonsense. No such adjustment was made. All you did was simply average out his starter/reliever splits. This is an argument about who would be the better starter. The author mentions having adjusted the numbers for Hughes’ role and then continues to give his overall 2009 numbers… ignoring his starter/reliever splits.
As a starter in 2009, Hughes posted a 5.45 ERA, a 1.50 WHIP and an .868 OPS against, with a 8.0 k/9. That in no way, shape, or form can be argued to be better than Joba’s campaign; small sample size or not. If you’re going to make arguments, at least back them up with real facts instead of pretending to. Joba’s 2009 season and his CAREER as a starter has FAR EXCEEDED Phil Hughes’. That’s not something that is even debatable. If you want to argue Phil Hughes over Joba Chamberlain another way, then that’s fine. But you might want to stay away from the actual numbers the numbers. They’ll only hurt your argument.
This is such a poor job by NoMaas and one of the many reasons I don’t visit this site more often.
Greg Oden's Long Penis February 1, 2010 17:04
I’m kinda glad Tank the Frank doesn’t visit this same much. His reading comprehension is very poor. It’s a debate, moron. A 2-part series. I’d imagine we’ll see the case for Joba soon.
Tank the Frank February 1, 2010 17:24
My issue isn’t with the debate but with the assertion by the auther that an adjustment was made to Phil Hughes’ numbers. And using those numbers (which are poorer than Joba’s) to try and argue Hughes as the better starter.
It’s a bad post.
If you or your lover’s penis can’t understand that, then there’s nothing else I can say.
Greg Oden's Long Penis February 1, 2010 17:28
What is “auther?”
Tank the Frank February 1, 2010 17:42
I would assume it’s a misspelling of “author” but then again who the hell knows?
Frank February 1, 2010 18:10
this is a good post, but some of it is just factually wrong.
Phil Hughes doesn’t throw a slider anymore for one. he scrapped it for the cutter. Also, he never throws his changeup. EVER.
Joba has three plus pitches in his arsenal. His curve is nasty as well, let’s not forget.
I’d like to see what Joba can do without these innings limits.
anti-redsox February 1, 2010 18:24
Greg Oden’s Long Penis says:
February 1, 2010 at 8:36 am
anti-red sox: There’s only room for 1 of them to start. Imbecile.
—- you dont say captain obvious!!!!!
the comment was meant to imply that they shouldnt hold back their development, they should both start, i would either have one in AAA who ever doesnt win the 5th spot. or stretch him out during the season and then become the 6th starter down the stretch to give the others a breather, then send him to PR in the winter to continue pitching to build up their arm
Voomo Zanzibar February 1, 2010 19:59
This all becomes elementary as soon as AJ or Old Andy get hurt (Let’s just go ahead and assume that CC and Javy remain solid).
SOMEBODY in the organization must have pulled Joe Girardi aside this winter and said:
“Great job fella! Way to go! But, ummm, maybe we could have won More than 103 games if Sergio Mitre didnt get NINE starts. Let’s just go ahead and put the most talented guys up front this year.”
——————————————–
I have an idea for the 8th inning, Ca$h, Joe G, if you are reading this…
Why dont you give the eighth inning (or at least a strategic batter or two) to a Starting Pitcher on his mid-week Throwing Day?
Not a crazy concept. Teams did this for 100 years before the Widespread Pussification of Pitchers.
Bring in Andy Pettitte to freeze Big Papi with that hook.
Bring in Joba or CC or AJ or JV to strike out Hideki Matsui with the tying run on base.
Stop with this “everyone has a specific job bullshit.”
Let Pitchers feel like the badasses they are.
They are Big, Powerful fucking Samurai motherfuckers who want to stand up on that hill and Shut You Down.
Put the “Rules” away and let men be men.
LeisureSuitLarry February 1, 2010 20:36
Frank: You are correct that he ditched the slider, but that could be because he went to the bullpen. He also threw his changeup 5% of the time when he was a starter.
He still threw 3 pitches as a reliever: FB, CT, CB
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=7450&position=P#pitchtype
HGH February 1, 2010 22:15
Stay with Hughes as setup..he was the best in baseball until Girardi started playing with his head in Sept. and the playyoffs Stop using Mo for 2 innings he can’t pitch forever I’m OK with Joba for the 5th spot the pressure will be off him in that roll
Steve February 2, 2010 13:23
How did Girardi “play with his head” in September? Or in the playoffs?
If anything, the leash was a little too long in the playoffs. Love the guy, but Hughes was just plain bad in the playoffs. Girardi was basically forced to bypass him.
Isn’t it possible, he just got tired by October considering how little he pitched in 2008? Why do we need some boogie man excuse like “Girardi messed with his head”?
BomberBanter.com February 3, 2010 12:49
I tend to agree with Tank the Frank – Chamberlin was a better reliever and a better starter than Hughes was in 2009. The numbers seem to show this pretty clearly. If I recall correctly, Hughes didn’t make the team out of spring training, but Chamberlin did, right? Surely the Yankees had a reason for that decision which was based on who would help the MLB team win more… I think you can throw all the numbers out and decide based on two scenarios: 1. you need to get 3 outs in the 8th inning, which guy do you want on the mound? 2. big start against the Red Sox, who do you want on the mound? I pick Joba both times. Hughes has impressed me, but Joba has wowed me.
Vito February 7, 2010 12:19
I totally agree with the original post. Hughes is a pitcher, Joba a thrower. Phil as a 5th starter would rock. Joba as the 7th and 8th inning guy with the lead or in a tie would rock. It’s the best use of each of them for 2010. Down the road in 2 or 3 years Joba could take over for Mo or, if he grows a brain and learns to pitch, he could become a starter, like Johan Santana who went from MR to ace pitcher as he grew older.