Joba… because otherwise it likely dooms him to the BP for good (unless they need him to start a bunch of games this season because of injuries to other SPs… AJ Burnett, say.)
Hi guys, the Mets are willing to sign me without checking medical records or anything. They just want me to start pitching next week. I’m a little worried by their medical practices, any chance I could get another chance at NYS? I promise I GUARANTEE I’ll bring my ERA down by a full run!
Phil has added the cutter and showed that he could pitch well at the MLB level. Joba has gotten worse over the past year or so. I don’t think it should be too hard of a decision.
This is somewhat a tough choice for me to take but ill take Joba. I would really like Phil to start as well but Joba has already a full season starting at the MLB level and he is bound to get better as he matures. I mean Joba is only 24 and hasnt hit his prime yet. Maybe next year Phil can be the #5 starter.
Both possibilities hurt, because it means a young starting pitcher who should be continuing his development is going to go to the bullpen. A lot of people assume, because of injuries, they’ll both get starts. But last year when Hughes clearly should have been transitioned back to the rotation while they had their starter-of-the-week fifth-starter auditions, they kept him in the bullpen because he was so effective. What makes you think anything will change this year?
Has everyone turned retarded? Hughes’ stuff plays up much better in the bullpen than Joba’s…probably because Hughes has two usable pitches (3, I guess, if you want to count the cutter), and Joba has four. Furthermore, Hughes’ career as a starter won’t be derailed if he spends a season in the bullpen…Joba’s will be. Also, no one actually knows how Hughes will do in the rotation. He probably will be much worse than Joba. Remember that before he went to the bullpen, he was going through another season of barely reaching the 5th inning, and imploding at the drop of a hat. He’s never had a stretch of domininance in the rotation, while we’ve seen it from Joba on multiple occasions.
We have absolutely no idea that Joba will be a dominant reliever. In fact, chances are Hughes will be a much more dominant reliever than Joba will be. Outside of his 2007 season, Joba has not been all that great in the bullpen, whereas last season Hughes was in some ways the single most effective reliever in the American League over a period of four months.
The arguments for Hughes to the rotation/Joba to the bullpen are laughably idiotic, and perfectly mirror the people you all have been making fun of for years. Joba doesn’t have the ‘mentality’ for the rotation. Hughes’ ‘stuff’ plays better in the rotation. Joba is a bull in a china shop, he can’t start. He’s too immature. Hughes is calm and composed. Etc. It’s really, really sad.
I think it should be an open competition. I think Hughes has a better chance of remaining a starter in the long term simply because of health reasons. He’s had no arm injuries, while Joba has. I personally hope they both end up as dominant starters for a long time in the future, and Robertson,Free Agent X, or prospect Y becomes the successor for Mariano. This year though, go with the guy who’s looking the best out of the gate and ride him until it looks like you made the wrong choice.
Ideally we want both to start eventually, right? Unless you really think who are 5th starter is will make or break the 2010 season, it really shouldn’t even be a debate. Continue Joba’s development, and stretch Hughes out further so that by 2011 they are both starting.
And also (sorry for 3 posts in a row!), the whole “successor to Mariano” nonsense is just that: Nonsense. He is a remarkable reliever whose career likely will never be replicated by anyone, let alone someone on our current roster. Whoever our next closer is will likely have all the ups and downs of every other closer in baseball history.
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Suzyn Waldman's Leather Pants February 3, 2010 11:45Reply
successor [səkˈsɛsə]
n
1. (Business / Professions) a person or thing that follows, esp a person who succeeds another in an office.
Notice that the definition does not include the phrase “is equal to.” Wondering who the “successor to Mariano” will be, is not nonsense. There will be a successor, that does not mean the successor will be the equal. Nonsense is pretending you are the only guy who figured out that Mariano is special.
I have not agreed with the plan BUT let the plan run.
Joba can do close to 200 innings and Phil can do 100 major league innings in relief.
IF Joba is fine great, the Yanks have spent two years building up to this (and Petite and Vasquez might be gone next year) which means CC AJ Free agent Joba THEN Hughes.
Again not too bad
Hughes 23 Joba 24 we have NO IDEA what they can do, let them develop instead of all the Horse !”#¤ debatting
For what it’s worth, everyone’s favorite feeble Jewish sports writer Joel Sherman says the decision is made barring a Hughes flop in spring training and that Joba is heading to the ‘pen. Most of Sherman’s information comes straight from his buttocks, so there’s really no telling if there’s any truth to it.
the only reason to put Joba in the pen is injury concerns – he’s had arm injuries while Hughes has not had an ARM injury, but other parts of his body. Outside of 1 start in Texas in 2008(?) what has Phil Hughes shown anyone during a start that he has what it takes? Joba has turned in some great starts and has been a much better reliever. If you’re pro Phil argument is that he’s a great reliever, I agree he pitched well in that roll, but not so much in the playoffs – and i seem to remember Yankees fans ready to run Alfanso Soriano out of town for not hitting in the 03 playoffs.
i still wonder why everyones lost confidense on joba as a starter and defend hughes as a starter and have confidence on joba as a relief pitcher and none on hughes when jobas career has been the better starter of the 2 and hughes the better reliever
The idea that the Yanks need to look for the heir to Rivera is ridiculous–not because Mo has no equal (though that’s true), but because a reliever, even one as great as Rivera, just isn’t as valuable as a starter.
I remember reading a while ago that Rivera, as measured by WAR, has been about as valuable as David Wells was in his career. Wells was an above-average but not great starter; Rivera is the consensus greatest reliever of all time. Anyone who’s seen Rivera would argue to the grave that he’s more valuable than David Wells, but that they’re even comparable should tell you something: starting pitching is very, very important and relatively more important than relief pitching.
I hope the long-term plan is for Joba and Hughes to both be starters. If one of them proves himself unfit for a starting role, so be it–I’d be happy to have a shut-down closer in the 9th. But unless the Yanks all of a sudden have a surplus of above-average starters, Rivera’s looming retirement should have no bearing on what they do with Hughes and Joba. With only one spot open in the rotation this year, I’d be inclined to give the nod to Joba, but the plan should be for both of them to start eventually.
If its not broken don’t fix it Hughes was the best closer in baseball, until Girardi started yanking him in Sept and the playoffs. Joe managed scared, but he got away with using Mo for 2 innings give Joba the 5th slot BY the way Jon, was that a antisemetic remark about Joel Sherman??
Put it this way – Hughes had a 1.40 ERA last year as a reliever. Mariano Rivera, the greatest one-inning reliever in baseball history, has a career 2.25 ERA. Do you really want to bet that Hughes’ ERA out of the pen would stay anywhere remotely in the ballpark of what it was last year?
I don’t think ERA is relevant in gauging whether Hughes or Joba would be effective in the pen, particularly not with such small sample sizes of relief pitching. The better determinant is probably their “stuff”: the quality of their 2 best pitches and k’s per 9. Both guys did well by those measures in limited relief duty, and I have no doubt they’d continue to do well if they’re asked to come out of the pen. The question is who is the better fit in the rotation. For now, I’d say Joba since he’s further along in the process of transitioning to a starter. While he struggled as a starter last year, he’s still had more extensive success than Hughes in that role. I’d say keep things as they were last year.
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Last Night I Dreamed I Was Playing Centerfield in Yankee Stadium in My Underwear February 3, 2010 22:19Reply
Hughes is the greatest thing since sliced Papelbon.
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Mariano Rivera is Great February 4, 2010 00:05Reply
seriously, how does anyone have a strong opinion on this matter either way?
I think I’d give it to Joba because of the innings advantage, but if he comes to spring training with tits and a buddha belly, i give it to hughes unless he has tits that hang low as well. in any case, i hope they choose correctly.
DP – Actually, I used the same argument against the B-Jobbers. I don’t think the future of either guy is the bullpen. My preference would be for Joba to start the season as #5 and Hughes to start in AAA to stay stretched out and ready to step in.
“I don’t think the future of either guy is the bullpen. My preference would be for Joba to start the season as #5 and Hughes to start in AAA to stay stretched out and ready to step in.”
If its not broken don’t fix it Hughes was the best closer in baseball, until Girardi started yanking him in Sept and the playoffs
This is nonsense.
When did Girardi “yank” Hughes in September?
And what playoff game was Hughes yanked from that he DIDN’T deserve to be yanked from? Phil sucked in the playoffs. I don’t get the need to blame Girardi for that. Yes, it’s a small sample, but hand in hand with that you don’t have the luxury of a larger sample to let him right the ship.
Thank you Suzyn Waldman’s Leather Pants, for responding like a Douchebag. Shockingly, I already knew the definition of successor.
My point, however, was illuminated by Sean’s response. The next closer will be the successor to Mariano’s POSITION, but not to his role/value/what he brought to the team over the last 15+ years.
Many of the pro-Joba-as-closer folks seem to think if we insert Joba for Mo, we’ve found a “successor” to the role of Historically Dominant for a Entire Generation Relief Pitcher. Whereas, in fact, there will be no “successor” to that role. Just the next closer, which isn’t nearly as important as a starter.
Sorry I failed to copy and paste and definitions from Webster’s dictionary. Unlike you, I’m going to assume a basic level of intelligence among people reading this and treat them accordingly.
Have to like Jonathon’s projected 2011 rotation! With the innings limitations the Yankees are sure to impose on Hughes this season, it seems unlikely he’ll begin the year as a starter unless someone gets injured. Now that Joba is getting the chain taken off, we’ll probably have a fair amount of data to judge him by in the 10-11 off season, as I still think its a bit too early to pass judgment on phil or joba. Ugh, when do pitchers and catchers report? Until we get to some intrasquad games, guess we’ll just have to debate that which is not worth debating – phil vs joba.
48 Comments
Monster February 2, 2010 23:38
Joba… because otherwise it likely dooms him to the BP for good (unless they need him to start a bunch of games this season because of injuries to other SPs… AJ Burnett, say.)
BronxByTheBay February 2, 2010 23:41
Can I choose somebody else?
Chien-Ming Wang February 3, 2010 00:14
Hi guys, the Mets are willing to sign me without checking medical records or anything. They just want me to start pitching next week. I’m a little worried by their medical practices, any chance I could get another chance at NYS? I promise I GUARANTEE I’ll bring my ERA down by a full run!
anti-redsox February 3, 2010 00:18
I’m gay.
Joltin' Joe February 3, 2010 01:57
Phil has added the cutter and showed that he could pitch well at the MLB level. Joba has gotten worse over the past year or so. I don’t think it should be too hard of a decision.
Al From BX February 3, 2010 02:07
This is somewhat a tough choice for me to take but ill take Joba. I would really like Phil to start as well but Joba has already a full season starting at the MLB level and he is bound to get better as he matures. I mean Joba is only 24 and hasnt hit his prime yet. Maybe next year Phil can be the #5 starter.
Jon February 3, 2010 07:42
Both possibilities hurt, because it means a young starting pitcher who should be continuing his development is going to go to the bullpen. A lot of people assume, because of injuries, they’ll both get starts. But last year when Hughes clearly should have been transitioned back to the rotation while they had their starter-of-the-week fifth-starter auditions, they kept him in the bullpen because he was so effective. What makes you think anything will change this year?
Eric February 3, 2010 08:18
Has to be Hughes…Joba will be a dominate reliever and have a long career. I dont see a long career for him as a starting pitcher.
Brian Shaw February 3, 2010 08:25
great point by John
Manny February 3, 2010 08:54
Hughes I think has more ‘stuff’… I love Joba’s energy, but I got to go Phil…
AndrewYF February 3, 2010 09:30
Has everyone turned retarded? Hughes’ stuff plays up much better in the bullpen than Joba’s…probably because Hughes has two usable pitches (3, I guess, if you want to count the cutter), and Joba has four. Furthermore, Hughes’ career as a starter won’t be derailed if he spends a season in the bullpen…Joba’s will be. Also, no one actually knows how Hughes will do in the rotation. He probably will be much worse than Joba. Remember that before he went to the bullpen, he was going through another season of barely reaching the 5th inning, and imploding at the drop of a hat. He’s never had a stretch of domininance in the rotation, while we’ve seen it from Joba on multiple occasions.
We have absolutely no idea that Joba will be a dominant reliever. In fact, chances are Hughes will be a much more dominant reliever than Joba will be. Outside of his 2007 season, Joba has not been all that great in the bullpen, whereas last season Hughes was in some ways the single most effective reliever in the American League over a period of four months.
The arguments for Hughes to the rotation/Joba to the bullpen are laughably idiotic, and perfectly mirror the people you all have been making fun of for years. Joba doesn’t have the ‘mentality’ for the rotation. Hughes’ ‘stuff’ plays better in the rotation. Joba is a bull in a china shop, he can’t start. He’s too immature. Hughes is calm and composed. Etc. It’s really, really sad.
phillip February 3, 2010 09:34
I think AndrewYF probably slams the keys down when he types. Kid has some anger.
Trev February 3, 2010 10:38
I think it should be an open competition. I think Hughes has a better chance of remaining a starter in the long term simply because of health reasons. He’s had no arm injuries, while Joba has. I personally hope they both end up as dominant starters for a long time in the future, and Robertson,Free Agent X, or prospect Y becomes the successor for Mariano. This year though, go with the guy who’s looking the best out of the gate and ride him until it looks like you made the wrong choice.
Mike K February 3, 2010 10:39
Don’t deviate from the original plan. Joba.
Mike K February 3, 2010 10:45
Ideally we want both to start eventually, right? Unless you really think who are 5th starter is will make or break the 2010 season, it really shouldn’t even be a debate. Continue Joba’s development, and stretch Hughes out further so that by 2011 they are both starting.
Mike K February 3, 2010 10:48
And also (sorry for 3 posts in a row!), the whole “successor to Mariano” nonsense is just that: Nonsense. He is a remarkable reliever whose career likely will never be replicated by anyone, let alone someone on our current roster. Whoever our next closer is will likely have all the ups and downs of every other closer in baseball history.
Suzyn Waldman's Leather Pants February 3, 2010 11:45
successor [səkˈsɛsə]
n
1. (Business / Professions) a person or thing that follows, esp a person who succeeds another in an office.
Notice that the definition does not include the phrase “is equal to.” Wondering who the “successor to Mariano” will be, is not nonsense. There will be a successor, that does not mean the successor will be the equal. Nonsense is pretending you are the only guy who figured out that Mariano is special.
swedski February 3, 2010 11:57
I have not agreed with the plan BUT let the plan run.
Joba can do close to 200 innings and Phil can do 100 major league innings in relief.
IF Joba is fine great, the Yanks have spent two years building up to this (and Petite and Vasquez might be gone next year) which means CC AJ Free agent Joba THEN Hughes.
Again not too bad
Hughes 23 Joba 24 we have NO IDEA what they can do, let them develop instead of all the Horse !”#¤ debatting
CNN February 3, 2010 11:58
Hughes is in the lead after nearly 400 votes
Butcher February 3, 2010 12:19
The real shocker here is that there’s 500 people out there that look at nomaas…I don’t believe that at all LOL.
Jon February 3, 2010 12:25
For what it’s worth, everyone’s favorite feeble Jewish sports writer Joel Sherman says the decision is made barring a Hughes flop in spring training and that Joba is heading to the ‘pen. Most of Sherman’s information comes straight from his buttocks, so there’s really no telling if there’s any truth to it.
Jake February 3, 2010 12:47
huh butcher?
BomberBanter.com February 3, 2010 13:03
the only reason to put Joba in the pen is injury concerns – he’s had arm injuries while Hughes has not had an ARM injury, but other parts of his body. Outside of 1 start in Texas in 2008(?) what has Phil Hughes shown anyone during a start that he has what it takes? Joba has turned in some great starts and has been a much better reliever. If you’re pro Phil argument is that he’s a great reliever, I agree he pitched well in that roll, but not so much in the playoffs – and i seem to remember Yankees fans ready to run Alfanso Soriano out of town for not hitting in the 03 playoffs.
BronxByTheBay February 3, 2010 13:09
Man! I feel like a woman!
Bum bum ba da da bum bum
anti-redsox February 3, 2010 14:20
i still wonder why everyones lost confidense on joba as a starter and defend hughes as a starter and have confidence on joba as a relief pitcher and none on hughes when jobas career has been the better starter of the 2 and hughes the better reliever
i think you all are dumb and ur asses stink
and the photoshop still sucks
Sean February 3, 2010 14:33
The idea that the Yanks need to look for the heir to Rivera is ridiculous–not because Mo has no equal (though that’s true), but because a reliever, even one as great as Rivera, just isn’t as valuable as a starter.
I remember reading a while ago that Rivera, as measured by WAR, has been about as valuable as David Wells was in his career. Wells was an above-average but not great starter; Rivera is the consensus greatest reliever of all time. Anyone who’s seen Rivera would argue to the grave that he’s more valuable than David Wells, but that they’re even comparable should tell you something: starting pitching is very, very important and relatively more important than relief pitching.
I hope the long-term plan is for Joba and Hughes to both be starters. If one of them proves himself unfit for a starting role, so be it–I’d be happy to have a shut-down closer in the 9th. But unless the Yanks all of a sudden have a surplus of above-average starters, Rivera’s looming retirement should have no bearing on what they do with Hughes and Joba. With only one spot open in the rotation this year, I’d be inclined to give the nod to Joba, but the plan should be for both of them to start eventually.
Pedro's Perm February 3, 2010 15:08
Why are the Yanks so easily cutting ties with Wang? He was pretty terrible last year…but really? We give up that easily?
A minor league deal is probaby too optimistic….but surely he wants to come back, and we could use him right?
Sneakers O'Toole February 3, 2010 15:25
I’m not taking my sneakers off.
HGH February 3, 2010 17:14
If its not broken don’t fix it Hughes was the best closer in baseball, until Girardi started yanking him in Sept and the playoffs. Joe managed scared, but he got away with using Mo for 2 innings give Joba the 5th slot BY the way Jon, was that a antisemetic remark about Joel Sherman??
HGH February 3, 2010 17:15
Sorry corection I met setup man {Hughes}
Kevin S. February 3, 2010 17:46
Yes, because fifty-inning samples are completely representative of future talent level and should be used to set expectations going forward.
Kevin S. February 3, 2010 17:48
Put it this way – Hughes had a 1.40 ERA last year as a reliever. Mariano Rivera, the greatest one-inning reliever in baseball history, has a career 2.25 ERA. Do you really want to bet that Hughes’ ERA out of the pen would stay anywhere remotely in the ballpark of what it was last year?
anti-redsox February 3, 2010 18:14
hughes is hype, he sure is no next roger clemens bullshit giambi and others used to say in spring training back in the days
DP February 3, 2010 19:12
Kevin- do you really want to bet that Joba’s ERA out of the pen would stay as low as it was in 2007?
Sean February 3, 2010 20:21
I don’t think ERA is relevant in gauging whether Hughes or Joba would be effective in the pen, particularly not with such small sample sizes of relief pitching. The better determinant is probably their “stuff”: the quality of their 2 best pitches and k’s per 9. Both guys did well by those measures in limited relief duty, and I have no doubt they’d continue to do well if they’re asked to come out of the pen. The question is who is the better fit in the rotation. For now, I’d say Joba since he’s further along in the process of transitioning to a starter. While he struggled as a starter last year, he’s still had more extensive success than Hughes in that role. I’d say keep things as they were last year.
Last Night I Dreamed I Was Playing Centerfield in Yankee Stadium in My Underwear February 3, 2010 22:19
Hughes is the greatest thing since sliced Papelbon.
Mariano Rivera is Great February 4, 2010 00:05
seriously, how does anyone have a strong opinion on this matter either way?
I think I’d give it to Joba because of the innings advantage, but if he comes to spring training with tits and a buddha belly, i give it to hughes unless he has tits that hang low as well. in any case, i hope they choose correctly.
Kevin S. February 4, 2010 00:17
DP – Actually, I used the same argument against the B-Jobbers. I don’t think the future of either guy is the bullpen. My preference would be for Joba to start the season as #5 and Hughes to start in AAA to stay stretched out and ready to step in.
Butcher February 4, 2010 08:02
I agree with Kevin’s comments 100%.
“I don’t think the future of either guy is the bullpen. My preference would be for Joba to start the season as #5 and Hughes to start in AAA to stay stretched out and ready to step in.”
Steve February 4, 2010 08:29
If its not broken don’t fix it Hughes was the best closer in baseball, until Girardi started yanking him in Sept and the playoffs
This is nonsense.
When did Girardi “yank” Hughes in September?
And what playoff game was Hughes yanked from that he DIDN’T deserve to be yanked from? Phil sucked in the playoffs. I don’t get the need to blame Girardi for that. Yes, it’s a small sample, but hand in hand with that you don’t have the luxury of a larger sample to let him right the ship.
Jonathan February 4, 2010 09:43
2010 rotation
cc
aj
andy
vazquez
joba
2011 rotaion
cc
lee
aj
joba
hughes
Mike K February 4, 2010 13:05
Thank you Suzyn Waldman’s Leather Pants, for responding like a Douchebag. Shockingly, I already knew the definition of successor.
My point, however, was illuminated by Sean’s response. The next closer will be the successor to Mariano’s POSITION, but not to his role/value/what he brought to the team over the last 15+ years.
Many of the pro-Joba-as-closer folks seem to think if we insert Joba for Mo, we’ve found a “successor” to the role of Historically Dominant for a Entire Generation Relief Pitcher. Whereas, in fact, there will be no “successor” to that role. Just the next closer, which isn’t nearly as important as a starter.
Sorry I failed to copy and paste and definitions from Webster’s dictionary. Unlike you, I’m going to assume a basic level of intelligence among people reading this and treat them accordingly.
Butcher February 4, 2010 14:09
“Just the next closer, which isn’t nearly as important as a starter.”
I agree with the above statement 100%. Either pitcher is more valuable as a starter, which is why I only want them to be developed as such.
and down the stretch they come February 5, 2010 00:43
Hughes is pulling away in the vote.
anti-redsox February 5, 2010 09:17
that shows there’s more morons in the world than actual intellectual people
BomberBanter.com February 5, 2010 12:26
Have to like Jonathon’s projected 2011 rotation! With the innings limitations the Yankees are sure to impose on Hughes this season, it seems unlikely he’ll begin the year as a starter unless someone gets injured. Now that Joba is getting the chain taken off, we’ll probably have a fair amount of data to judge him by in the 10-11 off season, as I still think its a bit too early to pass judgment on phil or joba. Ugh, when do pitchers and catchers report? Until we get to some intrasquad games, guess we’ll just have to debate that which is not worth debating – phil vs joba.
world series champs February 13, 2010 08:03
i say pick the guy that will win the most games and lose the fewest..that is what i think and i am staying true to my beliefs…
Dustin Pedderast February 14, 2010 11:16
Mitre is my man