And the winner is…
Thursday, March 25, 2010 at 2:49 pm by Louis Winthorpe III
Now that Hughes has been named the 5th starter, let's look back at our February 16th interview with Brian Cashman to see if we can shed any light on the decision and what now happens to Joba:
SJK: On to the 5th starter competition -- Joba Chamberlain lost significant juice on his fastball last year, in some estimates over 2 mph. How concerned are you about that and is that something which will weigh into your decision about who becomes the 5th starter?
CASH: Performance will dictate. He was inconsistent last year. He has completed his development program. May the best man win.
SJK: But, speaking of what you just said about sample sizes, how can you make a decision based on Spring Training?
CASH: You are forced to make those types of decisions. You take into account their prior history, but really no one is coming in with an edge. We'll see what we see. Maybe someone shows up out of shape or pulls a hamstring, that helps make a decision. Maybe someone is throwing ball better than someone else.
SJK: Will Phil Hughes' reported innings limits factor into the 5th starter competition?
CASH: No, it will not be a factor on his chances of becoming 5th starter. We will mandate what his innings limits will be and Joe Girardi and Dave Eiland will have full authority on how they would manage those innings - just like last year with Joba. They could truncate it at the beginning, it doesn't matter me. It only matters to me if they exceed their limits.
SJK: Is the loser of the Hughes/Joba battle going to be permanently placed in the bullpen or is this just a 1-year situation?
CASH: There is no permanent anything. Your team has to be flexible. The great thing is we have guys who have the ability to both go in the bullpen and start. If somebody gets hurt, somebody's performance suffers...Chad Gaudin can start and relieve, Sergio Mitre can start and relieve, Aceves can start and relieve, Hughes and Joba can start and relieve. These guys have the ability to succeed at both ends, some more than others.
So what do you think?
Tags: hughes
identical results to joba’s 2009
Like it. But wonder what they’ll do with Joba now.
Are those pubes?
Mindblowingly dumbfuck stupid.
To the bullpen:
The one who has had much better results as a starter, plus over a longer sample-size.
To the rotiation:
The one who has been the inferior SP, and thrived in the bullpen most recently.
This is the kind of shit the Royals do.
Since I like seeing stupidity amply rewarded, I’ll be one of the few Yankee fans rooting for these dumbshits to not make the playoffs. They now deserve that fate.
Makes me want to feast on babies
It’s only dumb if Joba gets sent to the pen. If he goes down to AAA to start then I can live with this because he’ll be back soon enough when someone gets hurt.
Don’t jerk the guy around again!
I’ve always felt as if Joba and Hughes should both be starters. What I don’t understand is why they went through all that with Joba last year only to return him to the bullpen this year. They fucked up with him. I just hope they can at least resolve to make Hughes a starter for good now, so at least his career is not in flux as well.
Woah, Joe D… Maybe take a minute or two to yourself before you express your feelings. It’s not the end of the world. It might not be the right choice, but one high-upside starter had to go to the pen. I’m sure Cashman wanted Joba to start as bad as anyone did. And I’m sure he didn’t get selected for a reason. Not just that Joba-to-teh-EIGHTH!!1!!!1! is da rite ting 2 do! It’s a reason to be disappointed, not a reason to root against the Yanks.
And when someone asks if you’re a god….. you say YESSSS!!
Im disapointed in the choice of Mitre of Gaudin.
Gaudin was at least effective some times….Mitre was a friggen joke.
Look, ideally both Joba and Phil would be in the rotation but with CC, AJ, Andy and Javy already taking spots one of them had to stay/go back to the pen.
Obviously both can be lock-down setup guys and only Joba has had much of a chance to show what he could do as a starter. With that said, it wasn’t pretty. Granted Joba had the “rules” along with not being sure what his role was but you know what, distractions happen…he had to deal with it and he didn’t do a good job. In my opinion, he didn’t look like the Joba from ’07 that was confident and fiery. At the end of the day, he didn’t look very good as a starter.
So does that mean Phil will thrive as a starter? Well, we’ll have to wait and see. It’s a good position to be in: too many guys for one spot. Much better than the past few years when the Yankees had to find guys to plug in to the rotation.
I think the hate about this decision has more to do with the slobbering Joba-to-the-bullpen crowd having a small “victory.” The bottom line is that the Yankees saw Hughes and Joba as equals coming into camp. I believe it was a real competition (with Hughes having an edge because of the makeup edge he has over Joba). So they fought it out and Hughes won. It’s not like they’re starting Mitre over Joba. The decision doesn’t determine where Joba will spend his career or even this year — you don’t know what’s going to happen. It seems ridiculous now how they made Joba jump through hoops to get him ready for 200 innings only to put him back in the bullpen, but that’s life. He’s a starter long term, but a reliever now, and if you overlook the many issues Joba had as a starter last year (diminished velocity and control being the worst) then you’re in delusional reactionary mode.
as long as my doughs clean and my penis stays wet, Im cool.
See you at the pahty Richtah!!!
“not a reason to root against the Yanks.”
Hey Ray. Appreciate the comments.
I love the Yanks. Always have. But the rewarding of active stupidity is worse than my favorite team losing. It’s a delicate balance. So I root against massive idiocy first and for the Yankees second.
I’ve rooted for the Yankees since I was a young’un, oh, 1985 or so. I have actively rooted against them for only two seasons. In 2005, the Unholy Trinity Signings of Pavano, Wright, and Womack led me to root against them. Here, in 2010, the continued ass-reaming being delivered to Joba Chamberlain has led me to actively root against the Yanks.
Chamberlain as a sub-25-year-old, has performed quite well as a starter, especially if you chuck out the two months at the end of last season where he was getting jerked around. The kid had a SUB-3.00-ERA as a starter in 2008. Taking away the “jacked around” months last season, it was SUB-4.00 in 2009.
You simply don’t yank a stud like that out of the rotation, particularly in favor of a guy who has done nothing whatsoever (in the majors) to indicate he can start at that caliber. It’s beyond batshit insane.
I won’t be rooting for the Sox, mind you. Never. But Go Rays, man. Go Rays.
If you take away Cody Ransom’s career, he’s been a great player. Can’t believe the Yankees let him go!!
“Obviously both can be lock-down setup guys and only Joba has had much of a chance to show what he could do as a starter. With that said, it wasn’t pretty.”
He has a career 4.18 as a Major League starter. Sub-25 years old. In the AL East. While being jerked around nonstop for two years, and heavily so in late 2009.
If that’s not pretty to you, then your standards are way too high.
Why can’t they split time as the 5th starter until May when A.J. goes on the DL?
I don’t know why it took me so long to realize this, but while I was focusing on this starting pitcher job I didn’t focus on just how stacked this bullpen is.
I would trust Joba, Robertson, Marte, and even Park to get a late out. Then you throw in Jesus Buddha Mohammad Rivera and that is a nasty back 5.
But lets assume for the sake of reality that Andy or A.J. or both goes down this year for a significant stretch – you are going to see Chamberlain make 10+ starts I figure.
No yankee fan can be upset about Hughes getting the nod and opportunity as the 5th starter. Hughes came to spring training prepared and showed some promise so good on him. However, I am one of many yankee fans concerned about the FO’s philosophy and patience on young pitchers now. Joba’s bad results came from 2 months and 2 spring training starts. How many successful starting pitchers have gone through streches such as that? Probably alot. It seems like me that the FO has given up on Joba as a starter based on the sample I just highlighted. Not a positive development if you ask me, unless he is kept as a starter and begins the year in AAA.
From the parts of the Cashman interview posted above, Cash said “nothing is permanent.”
“He has a career 4.18 as a Major League starter. Sub-25 years old. In the AL East. While being jerked around nonstop for two years, and heavily so in late 2009.
If that’s not pretty to you, then your standards are way too high.”
Under 25 pitcher, decent ERA given the division, under less than ideal conditions. Agreed and fair enough.
Maybe I just had too high of expectations for Joba given his tools. I was very surprised to see his diminished velocity, high walks and inability to go deep into games. Granted given the dumb “Joba Rules” that limited his pitch count but I regularly saw him closing in on his pitch count in only the 3rd-4th inning. So, given his talent the results last year were “not pretty”.
I think something clearly wasn’t right with him last year. Mechanical, mental or physical…whatever it was, he was a different pitcher. Hopefully he can turn it around and as mentioned, it isn’t set in stone that Phil is locked in the 5th spot and Joba never will.
My hope is Phil does a good job in the rotation, Joba gets his act together and next year they both hold down a rotation spot if either Andy retires or the Yankees let Javy walk.
And yes, pretty decent bullpen assuming we see the Marte we saw in the playoffs.
Mo, Joba, Park, Marte, and David “Hou-f’in-dini” Robertson. I would have loved to see Coke still in the ‘pen but lets hope Grandy does well in his first year.
He has a career 4.18 as a Major League starter. Sub-25 years old. In the AL East. While being jerked around nonstop for two years, and heavily so in late 2009.
If that’s not pretty to you, then your standards are way too high.
–
It’s not like it was all gravy for Joba, though. That 4.18 ERA came with more than 4 walks per 9 innings. The guy clearly has issues to be worked out. Of course, I’d like to see he and Hughes both in the rotation someday, but I agree with the rest of the people on this forum that you’re being hypercritical by rooting against the Yankees for this move, particularly if it gives Joba the chance to work out the kinks in the minors. They’re both young and still have tremendous upside, and I trust the Yankees are doing whatever they think maximizes their talent.
Bottom Line is Joba needs to be in the pen. He has solid stuff when he can come in and just throw heat. When he has to limit his stuff he struggles. The Yankees will need to find a replacement for Mo soon enough. Most will forget he came up as a starter and was moved to the pen in a similar move. Learn from the best and become his successor once the time has come. Kinda like we did with Wetland and Rivera.
Ask your self would you like Joba’s intensity once every 5 games or for one inning on a regular day when the game is on the line? I will take the second option.
“It’s not like it was all gravy for Joba, though. That 4.18 ERA came with more than 4 walks per 9 innings.”
Fun stats:
AJ Burnett 09: 4.2 walks per 9, 8.5 K/9, 1.1 HR/9
Joba 09: 4.3 walks per 9, 7.6 K/9, 1.2 HR/9
Joba 09 (elim Aug/Sep):4.1 walks per 9, 7.9 K/9, 1.1 HR/9
Despite the two month jerking around, Joba still pulled off a damn good emulation of the Yankees’ #2 starter, with the walks and all.
The difference of course, is that Joba is growing and learning.
We’ve kicked the 25 year old version of AJ Burnett out of the rotation.
I’ve looked at this a zillion ways over the winter. I’m not being hypercritical, just ruthlessly rational.
If this is the way they want to run their team, by making a move that is painfully, obviously wrong in any number of ways, and actively destructive of a pitcher who has earned better…then screw ‘em. For this year. I’ll be back in 2011. Quite serious, since I don’t see fandom as any sort of required contract anyway. Go Rays.
Team wins a championship and Joe D. says they are running the organization poorly.
Dave in MD,
Wow, that’s not even close to what I said. I said they made an awful move. Not “running the organization poorly.” Not even close.
Maybe this can help you: http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/
Good luck fighting the fight. Understanding what you read can be hard stuff. But I think you can do it with some effort and persistence.
“It’s not like it was all gravy for Joba, though. That 4.18 ERA came with more than 4 walks per 9 innings.”
Fun stats:
AJ Burnett 09: 4.2 walks per 9, 8.5 K/9, 1.1 HR/9
Joba 09: 4.3 walks per 9, 7.6 K/9, 1.2 HR/9
–
I don’t need to be patronized, Joe D. I know how Joba compares to AJ. But saying he’s better than a guy with notoriously inconsistent control is not exactly a vote of confidence.
You have a point that Joba’s been better than he’s given credit for, but you’re still overreacting. Personally, I’m inclined to trust that the Yankees have done their due diligence and that they’re acting on more than the limited statistics you and I have access to.
i’ve read that Hughes has an innings limit of about 145 innings for the 2010 season. What do they do when he hits that? 6 innings * 25 starts is 150 IP… starters should make around 32 starts a year, right? obviously, this is not possible. what will they do when he starts getting close? put him in the pen? get a scrub off the scrap heap to take the 5th starter role? stretch out Joba back into a starter? or do the same stupid crap they did with Joba last yr?
Joe D., you don’t love the Yankees.
Anybody who cites “mentality” or “makeup” is an idiot. There, I said it.
I’ve read around 165-170 for Hughes.
Three bad moves in a row.
Gaudin>Mitre
Gardner belongs in CF
Joba needs to be in the rotation.
Gaudin>Mitre
Everyone knows this. But Gaudin cost $3M and Mitre cost $850K. That’s all there is to it. The Yankees aren’t in love with Mitre or anything, I doubt he’ll even survive the season. But if that $3M allows them to make a mid-season pickup they need, we’ll all appreciate it then.
They are both pretty mediocre, there is no point losing sleep over this.
Gardner belongs in CF
This is far from a fact. If Gardner is the 4th OFer by July, you’ll regret asking Granderson to move. Also, the difference is tiny.
You’re accusing the Yankees of making a bad decision based on a tiny, tiny sample of Gardner’s defense. There is a pretty good chance he’s not as good as Fangraphs says.
Also, this decision is REALLY easy to reverse.
Joba needs to be in the rotation.
Maybe. But so does Phil. And I would guess they’ll both have their shot this year and certainly next.
Everyone needs to take a deep breath.
I’m really concerned about how this impacts Joba’s developement. Does he act like a normal reliever now, primarily using his best 2 pitches out of the pen, and not working on his off speed stuff?
Between the limited innings he’ll get, and the fact that he won’t be working his 2 seamer and hook as much (relying on his 4 seamer and slider out of the pen), I think they would be better off sending him to Scraton.
Any chance this means that the braintrust is becoming less confident that he has the make-up to be a starter? I hate when fans opine on that basis, but maybe Joe and Dave, who are with him every day, are losing that hope?
I hope that is not the case. If not, again, I think sending him to the coal regions to log innings and work on his velocity and control would be best for his development.
Loved Phil as a Setup man; thought Joba was coming around before Girardi/Ca$h money f’d up his rhythm with his innings limits. I can see the same thing happening this year with Phil’s limits, too. But hey, Hughes beat out Joba, good for him, Go Yanks!
How often did Joba get out of the 6th inning?
I was at the lovely Mets game when Castillo dropped the pop-up. A bit earlier in the evening I saw a pitching exhibition that in a single inning included 3 walks (ahead in the count on most of those, if I recall), 2 HBP, several catcher-pitcher discussions, a few stolls from mound to rosin bag, all by Joba. More of his starts were like that than not. Billy Martin would have taken him out of that game with a filet knife and told George he would never start him again, and Billy would have finally been correct. When Mr. Sterling is explaining that “other than his control Joba is fine and, after all, a couple of miles off the fastball is no big deal. Well, Susan will tell you there are guys that pitch successfully at 88 mph . . .” Let’s just hope Joba can still just throw. The best man won.
Fuck dat hughesss peece of sheeeet ma boy Jobas the best, like the meth i slang..THE BEST
joba: 7 inn, 12 runs
phil: 13 inn, 6 runs
they came into camp equal, there was lots of rain, a decision had to be made. they’re not sending joba to auchwitz, just scranton or a seat on the bench next to mariano.
it’s still march, guys, relax.
“The best man won.”
Helll yeah. I couldn’t agree more. The guy with the 5.22 ERA as a starter beat out the the guy with a 4.18 ERA as a starter.
To the best of my understanding, the higher the ERA, the better, like batting average.
GO HUGHES!
they’re both 24 years old. When they are that young, it’s more than just stats. You have to trust the scouts.
Hughes doesn’t project as high as Kei Igawa…. I’m serious.. why are you laughing! I’m not kidding dammit, he does!!
start aceves, its a 5th starter who cares who it is..joba and hughes in the pen with mo, cut games to 6 innings
Helll yeah. I couldn’t agree more. The guy with the 5.22 ERA as a starter beat out the the guy with a 4.18 ERA as a starter.
case closed. you really nailed that one.
This is fine so long as they don’t put Joba back in the pen. The guy has starter stuff, and his only real problems stem from the fact that he was never given the opportunity to learn how to pitch as a starter in the minors. The Yanks f-ed up his progression as a starter and now they’re punishing him for their mistakes. But again, it’s not the end of the world, so long as they don’t compound the problem even more by keeping him in the majors as a reliever. Send him to AAA, let him keep his innings up and gain some confidence dominating inferior competition, and then when he gets called up because someone gets injured or Hughes is pitching like garbage maybe he’ll have the confidence to attack hitters like he should have been doing all along. By the way, not saying that I think Hughes will pitch bad. I really like the kid, and I actually think he’ll have a good year. But Andy and Javy aren’t gonnna be around forever, and it’ll be much better to have Joba around as a legit starter when they’re gone, especially since he’ll cost way less then even an average free agent starter. And on top of all that the team doesn’t even need him in the pen. The pen is plenty capable of getting this team to the playoffs without Joba in the 8th inning. The kid should be in AAA. The Yanks have f-ed him up enough already.
Are we really getting worked up over the Mitre vs Gaudin debate? I mean can we enjoy the championship? I do agree however that they are jerking Joba around a bit, however I think this may be Hughes’ last chance, and for someone who was once deemed one of the best pitching prospects in all of the majors, let him get his shot.
Just saying, I know there is a Javy hard-on here at nomaas but I think if our front office was more patient we could have stuck with Kennedy, Melky and Ajax. That way both Joba and Hughes would be SP and Kennedy would have been there to swoop in if one failed…. In regards to A.J. if he got hurt we could have three young starters in those three or shop around for a guy at that time.
Anyway, this is only spring training, so most of the numbers are too small for season long implications. However, it would have been encouraging to see Ajax and Kennedy have their spring numbers for us.
I guess only time will tell.
Joe D: Will you still be rooting against the Yankees if Hughes succeeds? Not saying the decision looks 100% right on paper, but really don’t act like statistics for young players are completely indicative of the future. Girardi is a huge stats guy. There must be something he sees in Hughes to make him become a starting pitcher. I hope Hughes succeeds, and if that does, that you stay off the bandwagon and just stop rooting for the Yankees forever. Cause believe it or not, you may be the one in the idiocracy here. Why don’t you wait for Hughes to succeed/fail before you pass judgmenent?