Yankees have no idea what they’re doing with Chamberlain
Monday, March 29, 2010 at 12:29 am by SJK
On Sunday, pitching coach Dave Eiland said this to the Star-Ledger:
"He's in the bullpen, and he's there to stay, period.
Though he said things can change -- "I never say anything's forever" -- Eiland said there's no plan for Chamberlain to be reevaluated at the end of the season for a starting job.
"We get more out of his ability as a reliever," Eiland said. "We feel like he can be a good starter. We feel like he can be a great reliever."
And MLB.COM's Bryan Hoch wrote a good article on Sunday quoting Billy Eppler from a weekend WFAN interview. Eppler is the Yankees' director of professional scouting and one of Cashman's main confidants:
"In the here and now, I don't foresee any situation," Eppler said. "Obviously, that's for Brian and Joe, but I don't think they foresee a situation where he would go into the rotation. He is going to be a reliever, and obviously we've seen what he's been able to do in that role. He's been able to be very dominant in that role. I don't foresee a situation where he would be starting at all."
Eppler was then asked if the question of Chamberlain as a starter could come back to life in 2011, with the right-hander competing for a rotation spot. He responded, "I wouldn't consider that likely, no."
But last week after Hughes was given the 5th starter title, Cashman said he still viewed Chamberlain as a starter, even suggesting Joba would be in the rotation if Javy Vazquez wasn't made available:
"I think he can be that right now, actually," Cashman said.
"If the name wasn't Javier Vazquez, I probably would have left a spot open," Cashman said.
We. Are. Very. Confused.
After reading all of these conflicting quotes, here's what we think:
1. The scouting/baseball types like Eppler and Eiland believe Joba should be a permanent reliever because he fists pumps, screams, sleeps on a bed of nails, kicks homeless people, and clears out the bathroom when he's dropping anchor.
2. The scouting/baseball types think his total of 60 IPs as a reliever are a large enough sample size to draw a conclusion about his future.
3. Dave Eiland believes a "great reliever" is more valuable than a "good starter." -- That's disappointing.
4. Joba pitched 88 innings in the minors and was given 43 ML starts between ages 22 & 23. Is that really enough time to write him off as a starter? Really?
5. Cashman is torn between the recommendations of his scouting/baseball types and his own personal opinion.
6. If Joba is made a permanent reliever, Hal better get the checkbook ready for 2011 because the going price for starting pitching isn't cheap.
7. If Joba is made a permanent reliever, what was the point of the Joba Rules?
These are just our opinions, based on nothing more than reading these quotes.
For the record, we have zero problems with Hughes being named the 5th starter. There was only one spot for two competitors. But, it's hard for us to believe the destiny of Joba Chamberlain has already been written, especially when he dominated the minors as a starter and has shown flashes of success as an ML starter. Generally, relievers become relievers because they stink at starting. Joba should be given the opportunity to prove himself.
Tags: bullpen, joba, rotation, what the ****
Excellent post. Eiland’s quotes were confounding. He’s supposed to be smart.
Couldn’t agree more… Good post.
Maybe they are grooming him to be the eventual replacement for Mariano. As much as we hate to think about it, eventually Rivera wont be there anymore. A closer you can count on is priceless.
Actually a closer you can count on is worth 1/3 a starting pitcher you can count on.
Anyone who thinks anyone can be counted on like Mariano will be severely disappointed.
I wouldn’t wish being Mariano’s successor on my worst enemy.
Obviously Cashman’s words mean more than Eiland’s.
Joba losing the 5th starter spot in itself would be ok if it weren’t for the crazy mess surronding him.
Yeah, closers are overrated. Besides, if Mariano is still the closer when Joba reaches free agency there was ZERO point to making him a reliever because you’d then be paying FA dollars for a replacement which you could have done anyway. Joba the middle reliever v. Joba the starting pitcher is the comparison because he isn’t going to close for at the minimum another year.
Send him to AAA to start every 5th day (consistently) for the first time since he was in college.
Closers are overrated because of the way in which they are measured, statistically. When you look at what constitutes a save opportunity, you can basically have a 3-run lead coming into the game. This dilutes the numbers and makes saves less valuable, which leads people to make statements about closers being overrated. I don’t have the stats, but gut feel alone tells you that if you boil it down to 1-run games, a good closer is way more valuable than 1/3 of a starter. How many 1-run games did Mo close out last year? 5? 10? Though it seems silly to think that even losing 50% of those would make or break your season, pennant races and home field advantage often come down to a handful of wins. A starting pitcher is more valuable than a middle-reliever, by any measurement, but when you have a lock-down closer, the argument lessens somewhat. A starter will start 35 games maybe, and he’ll have a direct impact on half of those, meaning the other half he’s out of the game when it’s decided. Mo appeared in 66 games last year and had a direct impact on the outcome of all 66. So even counting the bogus 3-run saves, a closer has more of an impact on WINS than a starter does, period. Yes, you could make the argument that his value is less because he only pitches one inning and you’d be correct; however, the impact of the position is only overrated because of the bogus saves these guys get. Look at the 1-run saves, the critical saves, the saves at Fenway, etc. Big difference.
But having said all of that, send Joba to AAA to learn how to be a starter. Or, Joba, throw more strikes and this debate is over.
This is a great post. I am so confused and bothered by the way the management has handled this kid. I don’t get it.
Great point with the…if he was going to be a reliver…why did they groom him as a starter to begin with? I also am very much bothered by how Eiland puts more stock into a reliver over a starter. Is he out of his mind?
By his logic…I could see them putting Hughes AND Joba in relief again at some point…Someone please talk me off the ledge on this one.
It’s not really that confusing if you just ignore the guys whose opinions don’t matter. Cashman’s quote explains everything: the Yankees (or at least Cashman) still view Joba as a starter. He had a chance to win that job, he didn’t. If they didn’t get Javy, he’d be in the rotation.
When the season is over, he will be again given a chance to start.
The only difference is that in almost any other market, he’d go to AAA to keep starting. But, b/c the Yankees are looking to win a WS every single season, he’ll be used in the majors to help secure their playoff spot and then to help them win playoff games. That’s part of the cost of a win now mentality.
And the reality of the situation is that the team should probably be doing certain things to maximize their chances of winning another WS with Posada/Jeter/Mariano b/c sooner or later those guys are going to start playing like the ages on their driver’s licenses say they are.
Joba isn’t going to be dominant in the bullpen unless he can get his 96 mph fastball back. He is really better off going back down the minors to work out his problems.
True that.
@Steve: Cashman obviously holds the most weight, but it must be tough for him when all of his lieutenants are telling him Joba should be in the pen.
Why would they put Joba in the pen if Mariano is going to pitch until he is 156 ?
I still think Robertson is a better reliever than him. I don’t even think he’s the second best reliever. So where does that leave him in the pen?
I hope they don’t feel they HAVE to use him as set up…but if they don’t…man…what a waste this is…
I wish they’d put him in AAA. I know it’s win now and I agree it is, but it just really hurts his development.
Joba isn’t going to be dominant in the bullpen unless he can get his 96 mph fastball back. He is really better off going back down the minors to work out his problems.
This is absolutely true. And if he isn’t getting it done or showing signs of improvement, he WILL get sent down.
They can send him down anytime before August.
If there is one things we should all have learned by now it’s that the Opening Day roster will look very different from the roster on 8/1. This is not the last we’ll hear of the Joba drama. You can write that in stone.
You guys worry too much. If Robertson is pitching much better than Joba, he will ascend to the “8th inning” role. If CHOP is pitching the best, he’ll get it. If Joba is, he’ll get it. If they’re all pitching equally great, Girardi will spread it around.
I think we’re going to see a LOT of Mr. Robertson this year, not worried about that one bit. We will also likely see Melancon, Logan, and maybe Romulo Sanchez at some point. That’s just the way bullpens work.
Here is the Yankees’ bullpen from opening day last year:
Mo
Marte
Coke – gone
Veras – gone
Edwar – gone
Bruney – gone
Albaladejo – no chance of making the team
I think Robertson is my favorite player on the team. I know that’s a crazy thing to say. I hope he does well this year.
FREE JOBA!
Honestly, I think the confusing comments from various staff members is because they are trying to diffuse the situation of him not being a starter this year and in the process they are laying a ground work for when he is unable to return in that capacity next season, because lets say he is back in the bull pen throwing heat and racking up Ks. Everyone in the media will say “see he should have always stayed in the pen”, all the fans who thought he should have never been a starter will feel justified. So he’ll have another season of success in that role and when 2011 comes rolling in it will incite another media fueled riot of people complaining that the front office doesn’t know what they are doing because they are trying to make him a starter again.
Anyway, even though I think he could be a great starter given the chance, Eiland is correct when saying he’ll be a better reliever. Honestly, for pretty much any talented pitcher that can throw in the upper 90′s that statement should be true. It’s just that in this case his immediate success there will forever have him pigeon holed into that role. Patience is a virtue the Yankees front office has never had.
We have the best team on the planet and this is the ONLY thing even mildly worth worrying/debating about.
It’s like we’re a bunch of Princes arguing over which servant does the best job wiping our ass.
They should have traded him last September when he was massively overvalued.
They could have won it all without him.
That would have been the best thing for his career, and for the team in the long term.
If I’m not me, who the hell am I?
I think the problem is that the Yankees had a very valued prospect in Joba and basically did nothing with that value other than decrease it.
Frederick. I agree. This is part of the reason I advocated trading for Halladay. Joba/Montero for Halladay would have been fine by me provided they extended Halladay.
Don’t get me wrong I love Montero, but in a win now mentality you have a short immediate opportunity to win. Doing that Halladay deal would have made them a WS contender for at least another 5-7 years.
I honestly, besides DH, don’t see a spot for Montero on this team. That’s not a knock on him…we just have a pretty loaded team. I can’t see him catching on a MLB level either. He’s just not skilled enough, at least yet.
It’s so strange how all of this even started. Joba was dominating in the minors and already had that major-league fastball-slider combo, and since the big-league ‘pen was suffering, they rushed him up here to fill a need. But that’s all it was: filling a need. They didn’t bring him up and put him in the bullpen because they thought he belonged there. They used him in an unfamiliar role because of a flaw on their team. How we went from that to Joba forever staying in the bullpen is convoluted and completely insane. If the ‘pen that year wasn’t awful and they didn’t have to rush him up and he never goes to the bullpen, does all of this not happen?
To be fair to Eiland, I’m sure he’s sick of this debate and sick of talking about Joba. I’m sure he would love to put him in one role or the other just not to talk about it anymore. And if he truly believes Joba should be a reliever, it’s not based on fist pumps — it’s based on his honest observation of a pitcher he works with on a daily basis. Eiland was with Kennedy, Hughes and Joba in the minors and has always championed them. So while I don’t agree with him about Joba being a reliever, it’s certainly something to pay attention to.
Butcher – I agree with you about Robertson. I think he’s an insane talent. I know we have only seen 30+ innings, but I’m impressed.
However, I don’t agree with trading Chamberlain unless it returns a young pitcher with similar ability.
I think the reason for ‘Joba Rules – Joe Torre Edition’ was Torre’s amazing ability to ruin pitcher’s careers; see Procter, Quantril, Sturtze, Myres… But after that, I’m not sure. As an aside, I think a big reason Torre was forced out was bc of his bullpen management. if you think about it, all the yankees manager has to do is 1. keep the club house in order 2. talk to the media 3. make bullpen calls; its really the only serious on field call a yankee manager has to make, bc there just isn’t much room for bench moves with yankees teams. OK, I’m way off topic. Sorry about that.
If he were to be a lights out closer that would be more valuable than a middle of the road 4 or 5. However screwing with his confidence may mean that he will never be either.
“If he were to be a lights out closer that would be more valuable than a middle of the road 4 or 5.”
Absolutely, 100% NOT TRUE CROCK OF SHIT.
Bomber,
I agree I think they had enough of Torre ruining guy’s careers. He also kind of hurt Jeff Nelson too. There was a time when that guy was lights out, but I think Torre over worked him a bit too. Not to the extent of the guys you mentioned, but not far from it.
Andy Pettitte 2009 WAR: 3.3
Mariano Rivera 2009 WAR: 2.0
Ohhh yeah my bad because all of the 4 or 5′s we had over the years definately contributed more to us winning 5 titles than Mariano did, what was I thinking???
Diego says:
March 29, 2010 at 3:53 pm
“If he were to be a lights out closer that would be more valuable than a middle of the road 4 or 5.”
Absolutely, 100% NOT TRUE CROCK OF SHIT.
I think you are both wrong. You cannot value Joba as Mo, you cant value anyone as Mo. But then again yes a starter is more valuable than an average closer. Would you rather have a starting Joba Chamberlain or Jonathan Broxton on your team? And Broxton would be if Joba was lights out as a closer.
It’s not true that Torre’s only on-field decisions involved the bullpen.
We also needed him to pinch hit for Paul O’Neill in the man’s final major league at bat for Chuck Knoblauch… and then lose the World Series 20 minutes later.
At what point does Joba’s flip flopping between the bullpen and rotation become detrimental to his health?
The argument here should be about whether Joba should be a starter or a reliever, not whether Joba is capable of being a good reliever. People are saying things like “he’ll be good in the bullpen if he can get his 96 mph fastball back”. When did he lose it? It wasn’t there as a starter for obvious reasons, but the last time I saw him pitch, in the World Series, he was throwing 95-97. If Joba pitches out of the bullpen, if all this crap hasn’t messed with his head too much, he’s the Yankees’ second best reliever. I like Robertson, but he doesn’t blow guys away the way Joba did.
I love how people talk about Joba as if he is a quickly declining talent. The guy’s what…24? Come on now.
Just because people have different opinions on what Joba’s ultimate future as a starter may be, that doesn’t mean the organization has no idea what it is doing. Clearly, Joba’s present is as a reliever, and Phil Hughes’s present is as a starter. How is it messing with his head to express confidence in his abilities to potentially perform more than one role? There is no present controversy,except for the one this analytical burb is trying to create. Joba is young, he’s a Yankee, and he’s a world champion— does anyone really think that conflicting opinions on web sites is seriously going to affect his mechanics? I’ll enjoy seeing him succeed in any capacity.
Cashman is the only one who gets it apparently. If not for Javy, Joba might be in that rotation. I feel he should be in the rotation anyway right now, but count me concerned as well with those words from our pitching coach and scouting director.
I agree Chad that you can not compare Joba to Mariano. However, he has shown lights out stuff in his bullpen outings and I think that he could be a better closer than most relievers in the league. I just don’t think he will ever be better than a middle of the road starter
I feel he should be in the rotation anyway right now, but count me concerned as well with those words from our pitching coach and scouting director.
Maybe from the scouting director, but why do we care what Eiland says? Eiland’s job is to fix his pitchers’ mechanics. He is not the GM. He can be very good at being a pitching coach, and be a lousy GM. Posada wanted Joba in the bullpen. Posada is a Hall of Fame talent. Not a GM. Mariano might want Joba in the bullpen too. Mariano could probably make a very good pitching coach someday, doesn’t mean I want him to be the GM.
We are up in arms b/c we study things like WAR and understand the relative value of starters and relievers. Is that Eiland’s job? Not really. It’s like when people make fun of ballplayer’s when they criticize UZR.
It is Cashman’s job, and from everything I have read that he said, it sounds like he gets it.
Comparing anyone to Mariano is not fair to them and in a way, insulting to Mariano
Voomo Zanzibar – i guess i blocked that out… why in gods name did Torre pitch hit for Paulie? was there a lefty on the mound? i cant remember… it was a great series, despite the pain it caused me
Yes, there was a lefty on the mound. He sent Knoblaugh up there.
Yes, the lefty was six foot ten and had a mullet.
if he genuinely got beat out for the spot where else is he going to go? scranton?
he isnt beating out cc, aj, andy, javy
so it was down to 1 spot between him n hughes
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