Nobody mention that Joba lost his FB and nasty slider when he hurt his should in Texas 08. And make SURE you hide the chart showing his FB velocity before and after the injury. And under NO circumstances should his stats as a starter pre-shoulder injury be cited!!!!!

Failure to follow these guidelines could destroy the MSM meme the Yankees “ruined” Joba by messing with his head.

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Mike K, when did they baby him?

2006 he set a career high at 146 IP.

2007 he got hurt and missed significant time.

2008 he got hurt and missed significant time.

2009 he was left in the bullpen because “OH NOEZ! WE CAN’T LOSE TEH EIGHTH-INNING POWERZ!!1!1″ which resulted in Chad Gaudin and Sergio Mitre getting way too many freaking starts.

When was he babied?

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Joba still has a good fastball and slider.

The thing that makes Joba such a great option as a starter is because he also has a above average curve.

The curve he was not allowed to throw because Eiland and the beginning of the year told him to ONLY throw FB/Slider out of the BP.

I never understood that insanity..the kid had a great curve. It was an out pitch.

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we should make jeter a reliever!!! he’s the best at everything!!! i love jeter!!!

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The facts don’t really back up this claim.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2692&position=P

Joba threw his curve 7.2% of the time in 2010. Last year he threw it 9.2% of the time, so certainly he threw it less, but there is nothing to indicate that “Eiland told him to ONLY throw FB/Slider”.

The pitch he put away was his change-up, but that was never a plus pitch and is really a “show me” pitch when he is starting.

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Joba turned me into a World Series Hero for five minutes!

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WTF, do you understand that what Matsui did last year and what he did this year are two different things? I’m gathering that you don’t as your responses to what Matsui did this year keep involving what he did last year.

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http://nomaas.org/2010/03/joba-to-focus-on-fastball-slider/

Ah.yeah. Right again.

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There was also an article around this time where Eiland said he told Joba to throw only FB/Slider. He said that coming out of the bullpen Joba should not be throwing his curve ever.

If I can find it I’ll post it, but is it really my job to archive the ways they fucked Joba over? They just did. Everyone knows it.

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“don’t seem to understand why Hughes faded down the stretch.”

How do you explain his 5.34 ERA in June/July, dipshit?

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When pitchers can’t get through a batting order more than once, they are sent to the pen, where good pitchers then find a role. Good pitchers find a role. When they are not capable major league pitchers they don’t excel. Some don’t have ability and others have a 2-cent head. Joba is the latter. The list of pitchers who have gone back and forth from pen to starter until finding a role, depending on team need, is long. Let’s not blame this on how he’s been used. If you have been at the park when he starts walking and hitting guys and marching around the mound in confusion (yes, I was there for his start against the Mets in ’09) then you know what his deal is.

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We banned 2 commenters at RAB for implying that Joba is a fat drunk

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Right…

Joba forgot how to get people out, so it must be someone else’s fault.

Couldn’t be him.

Of course not.

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If I can find it I’ll post it, but is it really my job to archive the ways they fucked Joba over? They just did. Everyone knows it.

Ok, that’s fine that there was an article where Eiland said something like that. But the FACTS (I know, we hate those things) are that he still threw his curveball 7.2% of the time in 2010, slightly less than the previous season.

Perhaps the quote was that he should “focus” on his FB/Slider more?

I’m not sure what you are even arguing, the cold hard facts say he still threw his curveball, yet you are still clinging to your argument. You know, it’s ok to say “hmmm, I guess my impressions were slightly off, thanks for the info”. It really wouldn’t kill anyone to do that every once in a while.

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Plain fact is Joba has been just as good of a starter as Hughes…with 1/4 of the minor league starts.

Really – what a way to develop a pitcher!

Meanwhile, Hughes hasn’t improved one bit since his first year in the league. It’s the same as it ever was. The Yankees don’t develop pitchers.

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47.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

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As ML starters:
Phil: 4.68 ERA, 315.2 IP, 1.340 WHIP, 7.3 K/9, 2.18 K/BB
Joba: 4.18 ERA 221.2 IP, 1.480 WHIP, 8.4 K/9, 2.04 K/BB

Joba walks more but he also strikes out more.

Hughes got 62 games to start in the minors. Joba got 15.

It’s pretty clear to me that Joba has more talent to work with. And it’s also clear to me that even with all the extra work, Hughes isn’t a better starter. Worse, he hasn’t even improved from his first season in the bigs.

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Meanwhile, Hughes hasn’t improved one bit since his first year in the league. It’s the same as it ever was. The Yankees don’t develop pitchers.

This is silly. Hughes threw 176 IP with an ERA+ of 102 this year. This is a huge improvement above anything he has done in the majors to this point.

Innings matter. Next year, he will hopefully improve, throw 200 innings with a slightly better ERA.

This is a very typical development path for a young starter.

Hughes was already an above average starter this year at
24 years old, yet we have fans arguing that the Yankees have not “developed” Phil Hughes. Why? Because he’s not an ace already? This is insane.

Hughes got 62 games to start in the minors. Joba got 15.

Hughes was drafted out of HS, Joba out of college. Of course Hughes was going to spend at least 2 more years in the minors. Not saying Joba wasn’t rushed, he was. But the comparison to Hughes is apples to oranges and is pretty irrelevant.

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Kevin S:

I was referring to all those 90 pitch limits in all his early starts, and how he would never be allowed to work through anything after the 5th inning. Though I suppose the facts do indicate he accumulated more innings than I realized.

“hmmm, I guess my impressions were slightly off, thanks for the info”.

Happy, Steve? ;)

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Btw, Roy Halladay was sent to the minors by Toronto early in his career after being an established major leaguer. He was told to focus on starting and get his straight. He turned out OK.

I think this is what should be done with Joba. Go to the minors, start every 5 days, and we’ll call you up when you’re ready. That has to be the move, not being buried in the bullpen.

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“This is silly. Hughes threw 176 IP with an ERA+ of 102 this year. This is a huge improvement above anything he has done in the majors to this point.”

Yeah, innings mean everything – like increasing the sample size.

Hughes – 2007: 4.46 ERA, 72.2 IP, 1.280 WHIP, 7.2 K/9, 2.00 K/BB, 102 ERA+
Hughes – 2010: 4.19 ERA, 176.1 IP, 1.248 WHIP, 7.5 K/9, 2.52 K/BB, 102 ERA+

What an improvement!!!

“Hughes was already an above average starter this year at 24 years old, yet we have fans arguing that the Yankees have not “developed” Phil Hughes. Why? Because he’s not an ace already? This is insane.”

Sure, 102 ERA+ is *above* average. Sure.

Like I said, a league average starter is valuable. But Hughes has never shown he’s more than that. He’s a 4th or 5th starter. Let’s be real.

“But the comparison to Hughes is apples to oranges and is pretty irrelevant.”

1. They’re both still fruit, round and juicy.
2. They’re both starting pitchers who “competed” for a job last year.
3. Joba has the better chance of actually finishing hitters.

But, sure it’s irrelevant to compare them – like the Yankees never did.

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Mike K –

Joba is out of options. He’s a reliever now and forever so long as he’s in pinstripes. Worse, they killed a chunk of his trade value by announcing exactly that. Cashman has been convinced he’s the Mo heir – regardless of the facts. It’s sort of like how he was convinced Pavano and Burnett were sound signings.

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P.s. Hughes is actually giving up more homers now than in 2007. So whatever benefit he’s getting from giving up fewer walks is completely negated by the longballs.

Quite simply, Hughes hasn’t developed one bit. That’s not on Hughes for me. That’s on the Yankees. They move pitchers up the ladder then the pitchers never find their potential. Hughes and Joba show exactly that. And when they sign a Westbrook or Kuroda this year, it will be the same pattern repeating itself. Jaret Wright says hello.

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Sure, 102 ERA+ is *above* average. Sure.

You realize that league “average” for a starting pitcher is like 97, right?

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But, sure it’s irrelevant to compare them – like the Yankees never did.

When it comes to their minor league time? Of course it is. ONE WAS DRAFTED OUT OF HS AND ONE WENT TO COLLEGE. This isn’t rocket science. But way to take what I said and twist it to make some other point. Whatever, it’s pretty obvious that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

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Isn’t there a point the options go away and a player can be sent down without having to clear waivers? Or is it just injury that allows guys like Andy to make rehab starts in the minors?

I don’t have a clue how options work, tbh. I don’t recall Joba doing a lot of shuttling back and forth between Scranton and NY, so I figured he could go back down.

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What an improvement!!!

I will try to say this really slowly so you can maybe keep up:

If a pitcher throws 100 additional innings with the same rate stats, that’s pretty obviously an “improvement”.

What is so difficult here?

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I don’t recall Joba doing a lot of shuttling back and forth between Scranton and NY, so I figured he could go back down.

He didn’t. He still hasoptions, it’s just that to actually use the options he has to pass through waivers. He has options, but they are basically useless.

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Wow, 5% greater than average is now “above” average. If only the whole pitching staff were that “good”.

100 is an easy marker – regardless of your qualification about starters. Hughes is distinctly average.

No, show me a guy consistently 15-20% above average and we can agree. Hughes has never been that. He’s a back of the rotation guy who hasn’t developed in four years. I place the blame on the Yankees, especially with how they’ve handled the more talented pitcher in Joba. But Hughes himself might be part of the problem.

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Steve, this is significant evidence, though, don’t you think?

Hughes – 2007: 4.46 ERA, 72.2 IP, 1.280 WHIP, 7.2 K/9, 2.00 K/BB, 102 ERA+
Hughes – 2010: 4.19 ERA, 176.1 IP, 1.248 WHIP, 7.5 K/9, 2.52 K/BB, 102 ERA+

In comparison, what Boston has done with Lester and Bucholz puts our development of Joba and Hughes to shame, and all four guys have comparable talent.

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“Whatever, it’s pretty obvious that you have no idea what you’re talking about.”

Like clockwork, the ad hominem comes when someone has completely lost whatever argument they’re trying to make.

Hughes is an average pitcher who hasn’t developed in four years. Live with it.

If a pitcher throws 100 additional innings with the same rate stats, that’s pretty obviously an “improvement”.

All it means is he stayed healthy. As for the quality of pitcher he is, that’s exactly where the bigger sample is helpful. An average pitcher.

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I guess you answered that already. I suppose it’s improvement, but it’s not a lot.

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“In comparison, what Boston has done with Lester and Bucholz puts our development of Joba and Hughes to shame, and all four guys have comparable talent.”

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner!

Exactly.

Buchholz = developed
Hughes = not developed
Joba = not developed

That’s an especially damning comparison because they were all drafted at the same time and in the same positions. They’re all similar talents. Only one has taken a clear step forward. The other two are a back of the rotation starter and a middle reliever. I have seen nothing to suggest that the two Yankees will take significant steps forward in 2011. Awesome!

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I suppose it’s improvement, but it’s not a lot.

At staying healthy. Nothing more or less. His performance can only tell us that. And there we all see he’s the same as it ever was. A guy with good pitches but not the ability to finish hitters. Unfortunately, Joba’s better in that department, but he’s stuck in bullpen purgatory.

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In comparison, what Boston has done with Lester and Bucholz puts our development of Joba and Hughes to shame, and all four guys have comparable talent.

Do they? How do we know that? I don’t think you or I can know what anyone’s true talent is. I don’t find it implausible that Lester is simply more talented than Hughes.

Look, I don’t disagree with what seems to be your overarching point: that the Yankees track record in developing pitching is spotty at best, and it’s also hard to argue that Boston hasn’t done a better job recently.

But…where we are disagreeing is when you say things like “Phil Hughes has not developed one bit”, b/c it is patently untrue. We’ll know more next season, but if he improves upon his 2010 season in 2011, then 2010 will look like a very important step in his development.

Kindof like how Buchholz looked BEFORE this season. He was up and down throughout his career, and broke out in his age 25 season. That’s next year for Hughes. Is Hughes going to have an ERA like Buchholz’s 2010 ERA next year? Of course not, but neither will Buchholz.

Yes, the Yankees need to do a better job with their young pitching, but that doesn’t also mean that the book on Hughes has already been written and that he is a total failure.

If everyone just stepped back from the ledge, it’s a lot easier to have a discussion.

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I guess I was responding there to something Mike K said thinking it was Rob. Apologies.

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I don’t understand why you two are arguing, btw. Steve’s position is that Hughes is an above average starter. Rob’s position is that Hughes is a back of the rotation starter.

An above average starter ideally would not pitch in the front of the rotation, so you guys are kind of in agreement.

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Last point, I think you are significantly underestimating how important “staying healthy” is. If that’s “all” he did in 2010, it’s still a huge step forward for Phil Hughes.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

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Phil Hughes has not developed one bit”, b/c it is patently untrue.

Facts are helpful when you’re claiming something as true or not true. And you got nothing.

Kindof like how Buchholz looked BEFORE this season.

Hmmm, facts again:

Buchholz > 50 innings:
2008: 69 ERA+
2009: 112 ERA+
2010: 187 ERA+

Yes, the Yankees need to do a better job with their young pitching, but that doesn’t also mean that the book on Hughes has already been written and that he is a total failure.

Who here has said he’s a total failure?

He’s a league average pitcher who hasn’t improved in four years. Whether he can be an innings eater remains to be seen. But there’s little evidence to suggest he’s going to improve dramatically.

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An above average starter ideally would not pitch in the front of the rotation, so you guys are kind of in agreement.

Except for the $200M Yankees who have nothing else right now. Pettitte can’t be counted on. Burnett certainly can’t. Like in the playoffs, Hughes is cast as a #2 when he’s clearly a 4 or 5.

We were also disagreeing on whether Hughes has developed. He hasn’t.

If that’s “all” he did in 2010, it’s still a huge step forward for Phil Hughes.

Baloney. Staying healthy is a perquisite for “Starting Pitching 101″. It doesn’t earn an ‘A’ or ‘B’ or ‘C’. That’s the performance and there he’s no different than he was in 2007. In fact, with the homeruns, he may be worse.

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BTW: I guess Cash and Girardi “forgot” to mention CC’s meniscus surgery during their press conferences.

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What really burns me is Joba still has the stuff to be a legitimate #2 or #3. He throws harder and misses more bats. That’s the makeup of a legitimate above average pitcher. And he’ll never get that shot in pinstripes.

We’re at 13 years of Cashman and he’s managed to develop exactly one above average starter – Chein Ming Wang – and he lasted all of 3 years.

That’s disgusting. Utterly and truly repulsive, especially when compared to all of the free agent signings outside of the no-brainers in Mussina and Sabathia.

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For everyone else’s sake, I’m going to put this out of it’s misery, b/c it’s pretty obvious that we simply have different definitions of “development”. If we can’t agree on that, the conversation is pointless. I’ve stated where I think we do agree, but we’re just talking past each other at this point. It’s been fun.

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Nice try to save face, Steve. But you lost. You can’t simply state he’s “developed” because he simply threw more innings. By that standard, almost every young pitcher “develops” from one year to the next. Except the ones that get hurt. And when they do get hurt no one says they failed to develop. They simply say they got hurt.

Throwing the innings is simply showing up. Actually performing is the widespread standard for showing improvement. When Felix Hernandez put up a 98 ERA+ in 191 innings in 2006 no one was congratulating him for throwing the innings. They wondered why he didn’t develop. Now, each season since, he has.

Hughes has shown no change in performance in four years. He’s not developing. He’s simply throwing more innings. Big difference. Where you place the fault is subject to a real debate. Me, I place it squarely with the Yankees. They’ll sign Kuroda or Westbrook before they put Joba in the rotation. Awesome!

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I don’t need to “save face”, last time I checked we were arguing anonymously on the internet. I was simply explaining why we are never going to agree, we have different standards.

Throwing the innings is simply showing up. Actually performing is the widespread standard for showing improvement.

And I think it is a combination of both of those things. Since you don’t, there is nothing else I can say. I guess I “lost”. Congratulations.

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“And I think it is a combination of both of those things”

And some people think Melky is a good player. Neither are true.

More innings doesn’t equal better innings. Never have, never will.

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What a bunch of Saber metric stat oriented geeks today.
Joba has been jerked around and if Cashmoney doesn’t get a ‘Pitching’ philoshy soon then that is his biggest mistake. The core 4 + Arod are aging but good cheap pitching will hide a lot of sins for 3 or four years

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“Joba has been jerked around and if Cashmoney doesn’t get a ‘Pitching’ philoshy soon then that is his biggest mistake.”

Soon? Like different from last 13 years. It’s like the guy tried the young pitching approach once – 2008 – and has concluded it can never work. So he goes out of his way to get suck. I mean, Vazquez was his response to not being confident in young pitching. How’d that work out? Burnett too.

Meanwhile, Ohlendorf and Kennedy are league average pitchers. Why rely on youth when you can spend $30M on 80 ERA+ performance across 340 innings?

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Isn’t it awe inspiring that the collective here has difficulty tying a shoe, but yet has omnipotent insight to run this organization. Cash Sucks! Add him to the list! Maybe we can get Omar!

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@Rob – how is Hughes considered “undeveloped”? He threw a lot of innings, had a better than league avg ERA and had 18 wins and a dominating game 3 in the DS. I think Brian Cashman would have taken this when he drafted him 6 years ago, especially considering he’s only 24 years old

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