This will probably ruffle some feathers, but when are we to shy away from that?
Here’s the deal (NoMaas offseason idea #3).
Nova posted a 3.70 ERA in 165 IP in 2011, while going 16-4. He’ll only be 25 next season and he won’t be a free agent for another five years. As such, he’s likely to produce on-field value well above what he’s being paid.
What lovely selling points!
In reality, Nova is an average starter with an unimpressive ceiling. You won’t find a scout who has ever pegged Nova as anything more than a middle of the rotation guy, and his underlying skills bear that assessment out so far. His K/BB so far is a mediocre 1.68, due to a 5.38 K/9 and a 3.21 BB/9. He does a fine job inducing ground balls, but the low 50′s rate is still decidedly 2nd-tier. This is not the second coming of Chien Ming Wang. We don’t know how he’ll handle another jump in innings, and he just doesn’t appear to have the stuff to make great headway from his 4.20 xFIP.
Now, this doesn’t mean we’re anti-Ivan Nova. If he stays in New York, he will be a valuable rotation piece. Even an “average starter” is a legitimate asset. So don’t start whining that NoMaas said Nova stinks, because we don’t think that at all. However, we believe that at this point, Ivan Nova could bring the Yankees what they actually need most…a true top of the rotation starter.
And who is the pitcher we think the Yankees could land in a trade involving Nova? Cue all the internet psychologists, because we want Milwaukee’s Zack Greinke.
Greinke is an all-or-nothing player for the Brewers in 2012. He certainly could be a big part of them making the playoffs again, but he’s one year away from being a free agent. If he falters, or if the team around him falters, the Brewers will be left with nothing to show at the end of the year for the $13.5 million they’ll have paid him. With Braun, Weeks, and Gallardo in the fold for at least through at least 2015, the Brewers need to keep an eye on sustainable success with cost effective players.
While the Brewers front office surely knows Greinke has great potential, it’s also quite possible they underrate Greinke’s value. After all, Greinke posted a league-average 3.83 ERA in 2011. Milwaukee may well feel that it was not worth having spent 1/6th of their budget on Greinke in 2011, and they may be wary of repeating that in 2012.
The Yankees, however, should know that Greinke is an unquestionably elite pitcher. His 2.56 xFIP was the best in baseball this season — better than Cliff Lee, better than Roy Halladay. He got a late start to the season due to a rib injury, but once he got started he pitched 171 healthy innings. His ability to shoulder an ace-quantity of innings is apparent in his workload for 2008, 2009, & 2010, when he exceeded 200 IP each year. At 28, he is in his prime. This is quite simply one of the best pitchers in the world, and there isn’t anyone within shouting distance available on the free agent market.
A young, average, cost-controlled starter like Nova is a valuable asset to most teams. We think he could get the discussion going with the mid-market Brewers. We’d also happily throw Hector Noesi into the deal too, another young cost-controlled starter.
Also, let’s not forget that the Yankees have plenty of young arms in their system, and several with higher ceilings than Nova (two of which who are pretty close).
Bottom line, a CC-Greinke 1-2 would be sick. While Ivan Nova performed admirably in 2011, his trade value is likely at its peak. These are the types of astute moves that could solve the Yankees annual rotation problems.
*Props to Marshall Seymour for also contributing to this post




98 Comments
john darc November 3, 2011 22:53
Isn’t this the same team who didn’t want to sell on Joba either? And other people who were one and done in terms of performances?
I don’t see it happening.
John G November 3, 2011 23:15
Not really the same. If you want to compare it to anyone, they seem to hold him in the same regard as they did Kennedy, except without Kennedy’s bitching about not getting enough respect.
Sensitive RAB Guy November 4, 2011 15:48
are you still asian?
Carl November 3, 2011 23:06
Joba’s ceiling was much higher than Nova’s is.
Brandon November 3, 2011 23:07
So… Nova can’t get any better because he was nothing special in the minors? That sounds really familiar
John G November 3, 2011 23:14
I’m curious to why you don’t think Milwaukee has the same capability of realizing this:
“His 2.56 xFIP was the best in baseball this season — better than Cliff Lee, better than Roy Halladay.”
than the Yankees.
I dont think the Brewers will get rid of both Fielder and Grienke in the same offseason. That would pretty much signal that they’re giving up for the near future.
Kevin S. November 3, 2011 23:17
I don’t think Doug Melvin is particularly sabermetrically inclined.
Brian S. November 4, 2011 05:00
We should trade Swisher for Cain. I totally came up with that idea by myself and not from what you said over at fangraphs.
Kevin S. November 4, 2011 11:22
Am I really that off base in thinking that $30 million/year (effectively) for Lincecum and Montero being better than any of the other prospects traded recently for aces makes Cameron’s proposal a bad idea?
Brian S. November 4, 2011 15:25
Not at all. I thumbs up’d pretty much everything you said in that article.
Kevin S. November 3, 2011 23:15
Nova, Montero and Betances for Kershaw. Get it done, Cash.
nick November 3, 2011 23:17
there is no way the dodgers let kershaw go, he is waaay too cheap for them right now. I agree that trading nova would be a good idea though.
Peter November 3, 2011 23:20
This is uncontroversial, it’s just also unrealistic.
Captain Obvious November 3, 2011 23:26
You had me at trade high on Nova, but you lost me on get Grenkie. I want nothing to do with Grenkie (Grenke, Greinkie…..however you spell his name).
Brandon November 3, 2011 23:34
The Brewers blew up their farm system for Greinke and Marcum. Doubt they will give either up after one year
NY Jeff November 4, 2011 00:49
My GF went to high school with Grienke in Apopka, FL. He has a social anxiety disorder. He neither wants to, or is capable of pitching in a big market.Imagine that guy on the biggest stage in sports. Greinke would lose his mind in NY. I usually agree with NOMAAS, but you’re wrong on this one.
Brian S. November 4, 2011 02:02
He actually said he would waive his NTC last season and come to New York, it was Cashman who didn’t want him. For some reason Cashman believes that he “Can’t Handle New York” but I’ll take Grienke in my rotation any day.
Jeff;s Girlfriend November 4, 2011 06:07
That’s not what I said.
You’re just pissed because I blew a future Major Leaguer when I was in HS and then told you about it.
Loser…
Zach Grienke November 4, 2011 09:28
Why do you think I have social anxiety disorder, you skank? You kept half my dick skin in your braces after that blow job and didn’t even swallow.
Jeffs Girlfreind November 4, 2011 18:38
Besides banging Grienke behind Jeff’s back, I let the all-black basketball teams (varsity, JV and freshman) use me as their personal sperm diapenser (plus they had gigantic penises..unlike Jeff)
Sorry Jeff had to find this out on NoMaas
Serious Question Guy November 5, 2011 22:36
Serious question: does she shave?
Ben November 4, 2011 00:54
You seriously think the Brewers are dumb enough to trade Greinke, a Cy young winner, for Ivan Nova just cause he had a shiny win-loss record? But I guess the Brewers would do it because you’ll throw in the “oh-so valuable” Hector Noesi. Brewers will definitely want to give up their ace if they can get a decent long reliever.
“Bottom line, a CC-Greinke 1-2 would be sick. While Ivan Nova performed admirably in 2011, his trade value is likely at its peak. These are the types of astute moves that could solve the Yankees annual rotation problems.”
You are right, moves like this would solve the Yankees’ annual rotation problems. Unfortunately for the Yankees though, other teams are not run by complete morons.
BNBG November 4, 2011 13:58
Some are.
Dayton Moore and Ned Colletti November 4, 2011 17:25
You rang?
Brian Sabean and Kenny Williams November 4, 2011 18:16
We made some really dumb moves that were clearly contradicted by statistical analysis using sabr metrics… and common sense.
Phileleblunt November 5, 2011 04:14
So I hate to fact check but Yovani Gallardo is their ace. This would be a #2 for a #2 swap if you think about it.
Jim Leyritz's Cellmate November 6, 2011 21:09
Have you seen the teams that trade with the Phillies?
bartoron December 5, 2011 07:57
You mean the Astros? Ed Wade was the biggest idiot in all of… sports. He was also the ex-Phillies GM, so he clearly wanted to screw over the Astros to help his former team.
RSM November 4, 2011 00:55
Oh no. Not this Grienke shit again.
When was the last time you guys actually had a good idea?
Brian S. November 4, 2011 02:04
I’d love to see Grienke in pinstripes.
RimJob Mike November 4, 2011 05:34
Sell NoMaas.org to the Libyans.
Dumbest idea ever.
Ubaldo Jimenez November 4, 2011 11:58
Almost as dumb as cleaning out the farm system for ME!
Brian S. November 5, 2011 22:01
Honestly it’s too bad Cleveland gave up so much for you. You are do for some serious positive regression and I would love to have you in our rotation next season.
Brian S. November 5, 2011 22:01
I can’t believe I misspelled “due”…
Ivan Nova November 4, 2011 05:34
Me > everyone else
A non-baseball expert says November 4, 2011 05:41
Hmmm…
Sign Nick Johnson over Hideki Matsui
Sign Jeff Francis
Sign Reed Johnson
Sign Bobby Jenks
Trade Cano for Cain
Trade Nova for Greinke
Reasons why you guys don’t work for a MLB team.
CJ November 4, 2011 08:35
Yankee fans have to be the biggest idiots on earth. Bravo to Nomaas for coming out with fresh ideas. Fans don’t deserve a site like this.
And it’s amazing to me that people think they can diagnose Zack Greinke, like they’re all professional psychologists.
Guy That Normally Doesn't Post November 4, 2011 11:07
you’re right…everyone’s a critic, coach, Gm, and yes, psychologist when they don’t like or want a guy on his/her team…
funny thing this time thought…ACTUAL psychologists have diagnosed this dude…but yeah, don’t let the facts get in the way…roll the dice with the only thing the team has remotely resembling a number 2 starter
Internet Psychologist November 4, 2011 11:48
That’s right! Anyone who’s been diagnosed with a mental illness of any type can never do anything with their lives!
Social Anxiety Disorder November 4, 2011 12:03
None of you gape mouthed retards have any idea what I am, and what effect I have on pitching in New York.
I might affects Zach’s ability to mingle at a party, but I have no powers over his pitching.
Obsesive Compulsive Disorder November 4, 2011 17:51
Don’t listen to my cousin. He’s the one that really wants to go to NY not Greinke.
If the Yanks get Greinke, he’ll pull a Whitson.
Brian S. November 5, 2011 03:40
His social anxiety disorder would prevent him from making friends with everyone on the opposing team like Jeter does.
Axel Foley November 4, 2011 08:40
Holy shit…enough with this Jeff Francis. They recommended Jeff Francis as a reclamation project, and he pitched well for KC. Look at his FIP/xFIP, you idiot.
Funny how you leave out that NoMaas was bigtime against the Burnett signing. How was their prediction on that?
Crawford and Lackey November 4, 2011 18:19
Also big non-moves approved by Nomaas
Brian S. November 4, 2011 20:31
I’m pretty sure they were against Crawford.
http://nomaas.org/2010/11/obligatory-carl-crawford-post/
Crawford and Lackey November 7, 2011 22:17
Right. We both were overrated players nomaas suggested to forego. Yankees not-signing is a non-move, jiving w/ nomaas suggestions.
Brian S. November 4, 2011 20:33
They WERE for Matt Holliday, who has been one of the best players in baseball the last two years. Maybe we should have signed him, moved Gardner to center, and kept Kennedy for the rotation instead of trading Melky and Vizcaino for Vazquez. /hindsight
Brandon November 5, 2011 02:02
To be fair, a lot of these were good ideas at the time. Matsui hasn’t done shit since leaving NY, Cano was pure shit three years ago and everyone wanted him gone for JV or Lincecum/Cain
Brian S. November 5, 2011 13:49
Matsui was actually pretty decent in 2010 on the one year six mil deal he got from LA (123 wRC+). I liked the Nick Johnson signing because of his .400 OBP potential but using hindsight bringing back Matsui for one more year would have been the better move.
R2-D2 November 4, 2011 08:36
Can’t wait for when Grienke starts flinging his poo to first base and wearing his jock on the outside. That fucker is crazy HELL NO
The Truth November 4, 2011 08:40
Sorry didn’t this site bitch for years about how the Yankees got away from developing their own and now that they have, they want to trade him for a guy with a anxiety disorder? If this was Clayton Kershaw I would be for it be Grienke? Hello no. Here’s an idea keep all our young players & see what they can do if oh I don’t know given a fuckin opportunity. Has Wallace Matthews- Francesa disease taken over this site.
Internet Psychologist November 4, 2011 09:08
I am fully able to diagnose people I’ve never met.
RoboCop November 4, 2011 17:27
Protip: Don’t call yourself “The Truth” if you’re not gonna speak the truth.
The Truth November 4, 2011 21:17
Tip II. Don’t name yourself after a shitty 80′s movie.
RoboCop November 4, 2011 22:36
Tip III: Shut the fuck up.
Duh November 4, 2011 08:59
While I could actually see Milwaukee making such a trade, the dude can’t pitch in NY. Everyone KNOWS this. I’m pretty sure he’s SAID it. It’s not dimestore psychology, it’s a known fact. He’s got a disorder. Social anxiety disorders don’t mix well with fans in NY or Boston. The Brewers beat writers (both of them) pat you on the back and say “get ‘em next time, kid” when you have a bad game. Not so much here. The dude would implode. Look at Burnett! We need TWO headcases in our rotation? Seriously, this is a really dumb idea. And, in fact, throughout the history of baseball, I’m pretty sure there’s been more than one very successful pitcher who people dismissed and has proven them wrong.
And on top of that, we’re conveniently forgetting what a 3.83 ERA translates to in the AL East.
Duh November 4, 2011 09:02
And, in fact, throughout the history of baseball, I’m pretty sure there’s been more than one very successful pitcher who people dismissed and has proven them wrong.
By this, of course, I mean Nova. Dude seems impervious to pressure. Give him a chance. He may have less upside than Ian Kennedy, but Kennedy would never perform in NY the way he has in AZ. No contest. Give Nova props, give him the ball, and let him prove himself.
Groucho November 4, 2011 18:01
I never wanted to belong to a club that would have me as a member.
CJ November 4, 2011 09:10
You’re conveniently forgetting that his xFIP was 2.56. You’re conveniently forgetting that he’s worlds better than everyone on the Yankees staff, outside of CC.
potatoes November 4, 2011 14:25
yeah, because xFIP is the only way to measure a pitcher’s ability.
YOU’RE forgetting that Nova posted a better ERA than Greinke, in a much tougher division at that. Bad call, NoMaas. Getting rid of Nova wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world…getting another AJ Burnett would be.
RoboCop November 4, 2011 17:28
Did you seriously just compare Greinke to Burnett? How moronic.
Brian S. November 4, 2011 20:34
They are both right handed and white, that makes them the same. Just like Darvish and Igawa being Japanese makes them the same.
R2-D2 November 4, 2011 09:10
The media alone would harass his ass until he snapped and then climbed to the roof of Yankee stadium with a high powered rifle popping caps in bitches
Internet Psychologist November 4, 2011 10:49
Yeah!
vinny-b November 4, 2011 14:57
excellent post.
IndubitablyKnuck KnuckKnuck November 4, 2011 09:33
Eddie Lee Whitson Redux
Ed Whitson November 4, 2011 18:04
Maybe if Greinke goes to NY everybody will forget me crying on the mound.
Yu Darvish November 4, 2011 10:14
Trade Nova away for dick and watch him win 18+ over there that way you can sign me as the heir to Kei Igawa’s throne.
bart November 4, 2011 10:32
Greinke? Did you see the craziness in his eyes during the playoffs? The sound of a car horn in NYC will put this guy on the DL
Mike ASSia November 4, 2011 10:43
but but the FIP. my excel predicts success, anxiety is a variant that doesn’t exist otherwise I would be able to formulate it. *No mom I don’t want hot pockets don’t come down here I’m busy*
nduindubitablyKnuck KnuckKnuck November 4, 2011 18:04
What? A baseball version of Rupert Pupkin? Next thing you know, he’ll be stalking Cash.
Steve Nebraska November 4, 2011 12:37
Greinke is the real life me!! Except he would never get in that helicopter at the end like I do, he would jump.
Edwin Jackson November 4, 2011 13:53
Um, how does 3 years at $30 mil sound for me?
Tyrone Biggums November 4, 2011 15:44
You know what dog food tastes like? it tastes just like it sounds…delicious.
RoboCop November 4, 2011 17:29
That’s a great price for an in-his-prime, middle-of-the-rotation starter. If that’s all you cost, I hope the Yankees are the ones paying.
Scott Boras November 4, 2011 18:15
In this barren pitching market, I’ll get him 5 yrs/$60MM easy.
Crawford and Lackey November 4, 2011 18:35
Everyone screaming about keeping Nova here will be the same people who kick and scream about getting a ‘# two starter’ in June when Nova has the same measly K rate and is getting smacked around with all the contact to a tune of a 5 ERA after 10 starts.
Heres some more fuckin truth. He’s probably more like the 2nd half pitcher than he was the first half, before he was throwing a slider he used often in the minors. There isn’t much holding back a tall pitcher who touches the upper 90′s time to time like MJ touches boys (shamone), and mixes a few pitches, from getting more swing and misses. No ones taking analysis of W-L serious, but he can probably match his above average ERA with similarly strong peripherals for the next several years. Assuming his forearm thing exiting the playoffs isn’t a concern going forward, he’s probably a workhorse as he’s pitched 100 innings in 2007 with steady increases to 170 in total this year.
The yankees aren’t selling as high as you are, Vizzini, or as high as Melvin would need to be to take Nova, Noesi/Warren, Nunez type packages for even just a year of Greinke.
Mandingo November 5, 2011 02:55
Jeff’s girlfriend is a horrible speller. Her poonani is mad tight too.
HomeFries November 5, 2011 07:08
But it’s so much better when it’s home grown wins!
Grandaddy Purps November 5, 2011 15:10
does the homegrown have seeds?
Man from Taiwan November 5, 2011 09:00
After Basebar prayers Lobbie Caro and Curtis Glanderson come to my country, it feers rike a hot dog in a grass of water when I preasure my wife’s shrimp with robster sauce. At reaast I stirr have her poo poo pratter! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!
guy who likes hairy women November 5, 2011 09:09
straight up for Mike Pelfrey — do it Cash
Alyssa Milano November 6, 2011 21:01
hey there big boy
DormantUlcer November 5, 2011 09:52
This is more rational than dicking around with the dimensions of the ballpark to sort of maybe compensate for one guy.
Doug foster November 5, 2011 14:19
Ivan is no Doug Fister
Jeffs Girlfreind November 5, 2011 18:20
I should know…I banged both..sorry Jeff
Jeff Francis November 6, 2011 01:27
I’m a free agent again. Yankees can keep Nova and I’ll step up as the #2 behind CC.
Javy Vazquez November 6, 2011 01:30
I’m a free agent and all I have to say is the third time’s a charm for me on this team.
Curved Slightly November 6, 2011 01:33
Shit NoMaas, while we’re at do you think the Tigers would take Hughes and Romine for Verlander? Doesn’t sound like an unreasonable trade proposal to me…
A Fair Trade November 6, 2011 01:40
I think while we are discussing fair trades, we should offer Nunez to the Giants for Lincecum and Cain and that is only a starting point, that seems fair in my book and I would think that NoMaas thinks that’s a fair and even trade as well.
Vagisil Satin November 6, 2011 01:43
I think they may be able to sign Pujols on the cheap. 3 years $33 million should get it done. DO IT CASHMAN!
BOOM! Tough Actin Tinactin November 6, 2011 01:49
I suggest that we acquire Roy Halladay at the expense of Ramiro Pena
Bully Hate November 6, 2011 14:17
Through in Dom Brown and we might consider it. Fuck it! They have to pick 50% of Doc’s remaining salary too.
Ivan Nova November 6, 2011 17:06
How do you know I won’t turn out to be the right handed Andy Pettitte?
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Hindsight November 11, 2011 05:52
Me so horny
Joeybagonuts November 17, 2011 22:04
“You won’t find a scout who has ever pegged Nova as anything more than a middle of the rotation guy,”
Oh, well if that’s the case nomaas, then you are 100% right.
Wait a minutes… scouts miss shit all the fucking time. Who cares what scouts think when you have actual on field ML numbers to look at? Who scouted Irabu, Igawa, fucking Ken Phelps? Who scouted Mike Piazza? What about the scouts thought Mark McGwire & Paul O’Neil could be great pitchers? Or the scouts who raved about “El Duquecito” (I can’t even remember that kid’s name!)… maybe you should send a scout to girlfriend’s house so he can find your balls…
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